Author Topic: RAGE!!!! LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND:  (Read 1373 times)

esteban

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RAGE!!!! LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND:
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2005, 08:15:13 AM »
Jaguar: I remeber reading that there was a "flaw" in the design of the hardware that prevented even the most arduous programmers from tapping into the full potential of the system.  It was related to what nodtveidt mentioned, concerning the dual-co-processors... but the "flaw" was actually ... ummmm... crap, I'm not technical at all. But all of the resources (i.e. memory, processor) weren't always available, and no "software workaround" was ever developed to overcome this glitch in the hardware architecture.

Hopefully, someone here knows the details better than I...
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Black Tiger

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Re: RAGE!!!! LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND:
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2005, 10:10:22 AM »
Quote from: "dpaint4"
I was nosing around the web looking for stuff about my new game Blue Breaker when I found this little line of text at the following URL:

"This is a role-playing game for the flop known as the NEC PC-FX which later made it to the PlayStation."

http://pantransit.reptiles.org/images/sorted/anime/blue-breaker/

THE "FLOP" KNOWN AS THE PC-FX?!?!  WHAT FLOP?!  This console has lived on in a HUGE WAY, and as far as I can tell, it was no flop in it's intended market.

It makes me so mad when I see crap like that.  Like when people talk about how later "they turned the PC-FX into a Super Famicom and that's how Sony was born" or whatever the hell crap people pull out of their asses just to sound like they know something.

I love my PC-FX, and currently all my next-gen consoles are collecting dust, so that's what I have to say about that.



Well, although I personally don't count the PC-FX as a flop, I don't blame non-pce fans who don't actually know much about it for calling it such.

I get more pissed off when people try to say that the PC Engine was a flop or the classic, "short-lived".
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Keranu

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Re: RAGE!!!! LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND:
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2005, 11:16:53 AM »
Quote from: "Black_Tiger"
I get more pissed off when people try to say that the PC Engine was a flop or the classic, "short-lived".


Haha, that always pisses me off as well. You (or maybe someone else) mentioned in another thread how people give the Turbo a bad rep just because it didn't do well out here, saying the usual "good for a Turbo" game line.
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Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Black Tiger

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Re: RAGE!!!! LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND:
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2005, 02:55:52 PM »
Quote from: "Keranu"
Quote from: "Black_Tiger"
I get more pissed off when people try to say that the PC Engine was a flop or the classic, "short-lived".


Haha, that always pisses me off as well. You (or maybe someone else) mentioned in another thread how people give the Turbo a bad rep just because it didn't do well out here, saying the usual "good for a Turbo" game line.


Or how about how revolutionary the Sega CD was, since it was "the first CD based video game system". Sega may not have spread the rumour, but dumb gamers everywhere still beleive shit like that.

Its just as bad as how EGM still describes every high-res, millions of colors, 2D game as "old-school SNES graphics". And these guys actually make a living spouting garbage like that.

And I can't think of any current game mag that doesn't go on about how "if you can get past the ugly graphics" when reffering to Neo Geo ports.

But they're all hardcore, because they sprinkle Space Invader sprites all over their magazines.
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Keranu

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RAGE!!!! LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND:
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2005, 11:55:39 AM »
You perfectly described all of that! I couldn't have said that better myself! Well done! I can't think of any others like that the moment, but I know there are lots of things like that magazines or people will say that piss me off.
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Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

SNKNostalgia

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RAGE!!!! LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND:
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2005, 09:42:41 AM »
Mad props to Black_Tiger. Well put.  2D>3D always.

The only game magazine that ever had good taste was Gamefan, even though some games they rate bad for some imperfections but this is like 2% of the time opposed to 98% like EGM and Gamepro, so on...

How in the hell do these people rate Neo Geo games as looking bad? They need to be slapped in the face or have Exhibit A (SNES Super Street Fighter 2) and Exhibit B (NEO GEO Samurai Shodown 2) test done to them (Then still slapped them in the face).

Raster

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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2005, 06:14:05 AM »
Quote from: "jlued686"
But that doesn't make it a bad console.  I mean, 90% (or more) of gamers have no idea what the PC FX is.


A flop doesn't necessarily mean a bad system. Take the Beta/VHS thing. Or even today's Playstation 2/GameCube or XBox. The better systems don't always win. It's all about marketing, and the PC-FX probably had very little. And, the type of games released for it made it more of a niche product.
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Pingu

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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2005, 07:55:07 PM »
Quote from: "Keranu"
Yay for PC-FX development! By the way, has there been any updates on that Little Red Riding Hood game translation? I just can't wait until some of the better games get translations.


Sabres been busy as far as I know but as far as I know it's mainly lack of time and a translator that keep him back.

ribbit

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« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2006, 07:47:14 PM »
As far as I'm concerned, the word "flop" strictly relates to the financial level of things, and as such, yeah, the PC-FX was definitely a flop. Not the worst of all, but a flop nonetheless. Just look at the list of games... too many published by Nec, not enough diversity in genre, not enough titles. And didn't Hudson Soft have to cancel Tengai Makyo III in an advanced stage of development because the FX didn't have a remotely large enough user base for them to get a return on their investment by releasing it, let alone make a profit? What does that tell you? That's a flop. Now the system was very interesting, and had it been marketed the whole way as a true successor to the PCE, it could have gone on to have a number of awesome games, but as it is, it didn't live up to its full potential. There's a few cool games, but damn, just looking at them you can get a glimpse of what the console could have been, and what it didn't turn out to be.

esteban

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« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2006, 09:30:45 PM »
Quote from: "ribbit"
As far as I'm concerned, the word "flop" strictly relates to the financial level of things, and as such, yeah, the PC-FX was definitely a flop. Not the worst of all, but a flop nonetheless. Just look at the list of games... too many published by Nec, not enough diversity in genre, not enough titles. And didn't Hudson Soft have to cancel Tengai Makyo III in an advanced stage of development because the FX didn't have a remotely large enough user base for them to get a return on their investment by releasing it, let alone make a profit? What does that tell you? That's a flop. Now the system was very interesting, and had it been marketed the whole way as a true successor to the PCE, it could have gone on to have a number of awesome games, but as it is, it didn't live up to its full potential. There's a few cool games, but damn, just looking at them you can get a glimpse of what the console could have been, and what it didn't turn out to be.
Yeah, I think most people use the term "flop" in reference to a financial failure, first and foremost. Often, but not always, the financial failure is attributed to the "quality" of the item in question (this may or may not be the case, but folks often see a causal relationship). So we have at least three issues to deal with: 1) the quality of PC-FX itself (and it's software), 2) the profit netted from hardware / software / etc., 3) the user base.

The example of Tengai Makyo III certainly seems like it supports your conclusion (i.e. that PC-FX was a flop). However, it would be nearsighted to think that the cancellation of TM III sufficiently proves your point.

We need to look at the real data: sales figures of hardware & software (with the profit / loss). Raw sales figures are only useful for determining the user-base, but they tell us nothing about whether NEC was making a profit.  

For example, we all know that Sony and Microsoft have sold tons of cosoles, BUT they were losing massive amounts of money. Sony eventually turned a profit (due to strong sales, plus they made cashloads due to software revenues), but I don't think MS ever turned a profit with Xbox (they were losing $100 a console, then the prices dropped, so they're lost a lot). Overall, MS lost millions? on Xbox -- but they are gambling that in the long-term (I don't know, maybe they have a 10 year outlook?) things will be lucrative. They can afford to do this, since MS makes billions in other divisions.

Guess what? Nintendo was making a profit on the GameCube hardware on launch day. That's friggin' amazing. When the price dropped to $99, then Nintendo was losing $10 per console.

Most folks would place Nintendo's Gamecube in distant third place in the recent console wars. But if you look at profit margins, the GameCube outperformed Xbox, and then some. The only reason Xbox is still around is because MS has zillions of dollars and can afford to subsidize the losses.

So, is Xbox a flop? Is GameCube a flop?

If PC-FX was a niche system and profitable for NEC, then was it a flop?

How should we define "flop"?

I don't have the answers, of course, but this is food for thought.

All of this leads to a question that I would love to find the answer to: Was TG-16 profitable for NEC? For how long and to what extent?
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ribbit

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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2006, 05:19:56 PM »
You do raise a lot interesting points... Of course we couldn't ultimately determine the profitability of the PC-FX without a good amount of data I don't think we possess (speaking of which, what's the real figures in terms of PC-FX sales? Anybody knows?). It's possible that it worked as a niche system which market just wasn't the same as its predecessor, but even then, why didn't Nec ever produce another console? Personally, the PC-FX is a big disappointment to me. I guess it's better to look at it as an interesting side-note than as a genuine successor to the PC-Engine.

esteban

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« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2006, 12:27:59 PM »
Quote from: "ribbit"
You do raise a lot interesting points... Of course we couldn't ultimately determine the profitability of the PC-FX without a good amount of data I don't think we possess (speaking of which, what's the real figures in terms of PC-FX sales? Anybody knows?). It's possible that it worked as a niche system which market just wasn't the same as its predecessor, but even then, why didn't Nec ever produce another console? Personally, the PC-FX is a big disappointment to me. I guess it's better to look at it as an interesting side-note than as a genuine successor to the PC-Engine.
Yeah, I agree.  The PC-FX does not feel like a true successor to the PC-Engine. But I don't know what other direction NEC would have taken...

Personally, I would have loved it if NEC put out a hardcore 2D console (in the spirit of NeoGeo)... but I don't think it would have been too successful competing with Sega's Saturn (and Sony's PlayStation).

And I think we can all agree that PC-FX had the potential to be a killer 2D console, had NEC actively pursued shoot-em-ups, platformers, action-RPGs, 2D arcade ports, etc. Those are my favorite genres, anyway :)
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nodtveidt

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RAGE!!!! LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND:
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2006, 01:58:27 PM »
It definately had a lot of potential...from what I know, the PC-FX is quite a powerful little number cruncher with some good graphical abilities.

Black Tiger

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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2006, 01:59:07 PM »
Quote from: "ribbit"
As far as I'm concerned, the word "flop" strictly relates to the financial level of things, and as such, yeah, the PC-FX was definitely a flop. Not the worst of all, but a flop nonetheless. Just look at the list of games... too many published by Nec, not enough diversity in genre, not enough titles. And didn't Hudson Soft have to cancel Tengai Makyo III in an advanced stage of development because the FX didn't have a remotely large enough user base for them to get a return on their investment by releasing it, let alone make a profit? What does that tell you? That's a flop. Now the system was very interesting, and had it been marketed the whole way as a true successor to the PCE, it could have gone on to have a number of awesome games, but as it is, it didn't live up to its full potential. There's a few cool games, but damn, just looking at them you can get a glimpse of what the console could have been, and what it didn't turn out to be.


I don't think that TMIII ever got to an advanced development stage before the PS2 release. I'm sure that a lot was planned out 'on paper'.

Otherwise, we'd have seen at least one in-game screenshot(not just the slapped together "intro").

And if it had gotten far enough as an actual running game, they'd probably have at least tried porting it to Saturn or PSX, in which case we'd have at least gotten a screenshot.
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Black Tiger

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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2006, 02:17:25 PM »
Quote from: "stevek666"
Quote from: "ribbit"
You do raise a lot interesting points... Of course we couldn't ultimately determine the profitability of the PC-FX without a good amount of data I don't think we possess (speaking of which, what's the real figures in terms of PC-FX sales? Anybody knows?). It's possible that it worked as a niche system which market just wasn't the same as its predecessor, but even then, why didn't Nec ever produce another console? Personally, the PC-FX is a big disappointment to me. I guess it's better to look at it as an interesting side-note than as a genuine successor to the PC-Engine.
Yeah, I agree.  The PC-FX does not feel like a true successor to the PC-Engine. But I don't know what other direction NEC would have taken...

Personally, I would have loved it if NEC put out a hardcore 2D console (in the spirit of NeoGeo)... but I don't think it would have been too successful competing with Sega's Saturn (and Sony's PlayStation).

And I think we can all agree that PC-FX had the potential to be a killer 2D console, had NEC actively pursued shoot-em-ups, platformers, action-RPGs, 2D arcade ports, etc. Those are my favorite genres, anyway :)


I consider the Saturn to be the spiritual successor to the PCE and the Dreamcast after that in many ways.

Not only did the Saturn get the most PCE'ish PCE-brand and non-PCE-brand sequals(Saturn Bomberman VS all those 3D ones), but it was also a competant system for its class when in the right hands.

Once again good developers turned out some of the most cutting edge graphics to compliment great games and lazy developers didn't even attempt a lot of things because it wasn't already programmed into the hardware.

And although the other 2 systems are considered to be more successful and have more software, the Saturn by far has more titles that interest me, just like the PCE over MD/Gen & SNES/SFC.

But even just TM: Apocalypse IV and Saturn Bomberman alone make it enough of a 32-bit PCE for me. Also I love Snatcher and Policenauts fits nicely into my PCE-successor vision, let alone all the original-original content that it aso has.

To me at least, the Saturn is way more PCE than MD'ish.
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