Author Topic: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?  (Read 3365 times)

Keranu

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2007, 02:56:55 PM »
Am I the only one who thought Wii Sports had awesome graphics? When I first played tennis, I was impressed with the sharp detail of the court and the really nice lens blur effect when the camera is focusing on different objects. Not just tennis though, but all of the levels have that nice sharp look to them with good lightning effects. Most Wii games do look like Gamecube games, but the Wii Sports definitely didn't feel like Gamecube to me, strangely enough.

Quote from: Joe
Also has anyone besides me noticed that the Wii loads data much slower than the Gamecube?  Those damn doors on Metroid Prime 3 are a good example.
YES! It doesn't even have to be for a big game like Metroid Prime, it can be for small stuff like Wii Channels. I remember Mario Party for Wii even having slow loading. I've been meaning to compare loading time of Gamecube games between the Gamecube and Wii hardware.
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Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Joe Redifer

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2007, 02:58:59 PM »
Quote from: Keranu

Wii Sports definitely didn't feel like Gamecube to me, strangely enough.


Might have something to do with the controls.  :wink:

Michael Helgeson

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2007, 03:14:17 PM »
Uh, Micheal?  Throwing specs on paper around is one thing.  Real life is another (also you forgot about the extra memory).  Wii programmers have had plenty of time to take advantage of the extra capacity of the Wii, and the truth is that very few games have actually done it.  I think that perhaps Super Mario Galaxy couldn't be done on the Gamecube 100% and maybe Metroid Prime 3.  There might be a few other games I haven't seen, but I doubt it.  All I know is when I go and play Gamecube games, they really don't look any different, and original Xbox games still look better.  In fact I wouldn't be surprised if most Wii development systems are GC dev systems with Wii control functionality tacked on.  I have no way of proving that, but it sure seems like it.  One thing I am seeing is that more games are using 16:9 whereas most Gamecube games used 4:3 only.  I think that is Nintendo basically suggesting to developers to use 16:9, though, as F-Zero GX on the 'Cube ran great at 480p, 16:9, 60fps with great graphics and no slowdown.   Also has anyone besides me noticed that the Wii loads data much slower than the Gamecube?  Those damn doors on Metroid Prime 3 are a good example.

Bottom line:  I don't expect Wii graphics to improve much in the future over what we are seeing now.



The extra memory isn't what makes it more powerful really,its the newer GPU and CPUs. They really are more powerful,but as it is clear as day,the programmers are not trying to max it out. I have yet to play Pro Street on Wii,as I was wondering how well it runs and looks. This all is typical,as I said. The Xbox and PS2 had the same issues,esp the PS2. The first couple of years the titles really were not mind blowing,and did not do as much as they could with the hardware. The 360 suffered in this manner on its first year and PS3 is currently suffering the same thing.

Also,the dev kits for Wii wouldn't be the same as GC dev kits,the hardware is backwards compatible on Wii,GC  not being forwards compatible obviously due to differences in GPU and CPU instruction sets,ect. Also,Joe,its always typical of you to bitch and whine,but seriously,if your not happy with it you can always sell it and have no more reasons to complain,since your current suffering is self inflicted. Considering the going price for them (Wii systems) used right now is near the new price,you would get your money back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 03:17:55 PM by Michael Helgeson »

Joe Redifer

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2007, 03:43:46 PM »
Quote from: Michael Helgeson

The extra memory isn't what makes it more powerful really,its the newer GPU and CPUs.


This is from the same guy that argues that Blazing Star can't be done on the Saturn due to memory constraints?

Quote from: Michael Helgeson

Also,Joe,its always typical of you to bitch and whine


That's the pot calling the kettle black, my friend.  And who said I wasn't happy with the Wii?  I've already said that I've greatly enjoyed Metroid Prime 3 and Super Mario Galaxy.  I never said either of those games MUST have better graphics to be enjoyable.  I'm just saying from a audio/visual point of view, the Wii isn't much more than a Gamecube.

Michael Helgeson

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2007, 06:31:15 PM »
Quote from: Michael Helgeson

The extra memory isn't what makes it more powerful really,its the newer GPU and CPUs.


This is from the same guy that argues that Blazing Star can't be done on the Saturn due to memory constraints?

Quote from: Michael Helgeson

Also,Joe,its always typical of you to bitch and whine


That's the pot calling the kettle black, my friend.  And who said I wasn't happy with the Wii?  I've already said that I've greatly enjoyed Metroid Prime 3 and Super Mario Galaxy.  I never said either of those games MUST have better graphics to be enjoyable.  I'm just saying from a audio/visual point of view, the Wii isn't much more than a Gamecube.

At 640x480 the increased graphics memory isn't going to make it more powerful.You can cram 1 gig of Pc 133 sdram  into a Pentium 2 computer and with a Voodoo 3 and its still going to run games at the same performance frames per second wise as the same computer with 128 megs if your only running games at 640x480 from that time period.

88 megs on the Wii is nothing. They only give the Gpu like 3 of it. This is the same amount they gave the Game Cubes Flipper GPU. Compare that to the 10 the ATI GPU in the 360 gets. Thats all it needs at 640x480,and honestly not even that much to do well since everything is going to be optimized to use a low storage number and load from the disc often. Same goes for the Xbox and its 64 megs it had. Not all of that went to the GPU. Ram stores the data,it doesn't push the frame rates up  more at such a low res number like 640x480.

 It could have survived off the same amount as the Xbox,even better if it would have had a hard drive. Extra numbers in ram wont matter until you plan to store tons of larger textures all at once and run at higher res like 1024x768 or higher. Obviously they did not intend on the Wii doing this kinda work,and even then,at those higher res numbers the ram has to be 256 bit ddr2 or 3 to make a huge improvement on fill rates these days,and the game has to be a heavy duty title needing it,something using alot of pixel shaders and other effects. Basically its clock speed on the ram also needs to be twice the GPUS speed on average too.

 Whats going to make it more powerful at 640x480 res gameplay is the higher clock rates and newer core features to do the extra visual effects.... Do you know anything about how gpus work? Take for instance  a Radeon 9600 64 meg versus a 128 meg version running 3D Mark 2k1 or 2k3 at 640x480. You wont notice any frames per second increase at that res because the generation of games (2000-2004)details dont have as huge  a demand on memory at lower res settings. The same is going to be with the GPU memory on the Wii. Games made on it are going to be optimized for lower res that only needs a small amount of ram for visuals.

They got to stick to the same amount of ram graphically as the amount in the GameCube ,since they were determined to stay at 640x480 type res that still is enough for the new features the GPU has since that GPU isn't designed for awesome high res visuals and multi shader effects. Its highly doubtful they will need to tap all the ram on the system ever to a stressful point. If they ever get to the point where they need more ram then what is currently in there then most likely they are going to need  a better Gpu to push whats being stored in the larger ram space. When they get to that point then they will prob make a new system obviously.

Basically the Wii is going to move graphics faster at better fill rates due to the extra core features and higher clock rates at 640x480 like res,not due to the extra memory inside it main hardware. Memory is for storage aspect honestly,not the power aspect graphically since its GPU has the same amount as the GC GPU. True,both the GPU and the ram need each other to do anything,but in the larger scheme of things the GPU plays the more important role,because a shit GPU wont get you anywhere,no matter how much ram you give it,and only a very powerful GPU is going to need a good large amount of ram to do its job well(high res gaming,mega high fill rates,multi shader effects).

The Saturn graphically could have done Blazing Star if it had more ram for storage of the game. Its graphics ability was more then powerful enough to do it otherwise. The STV could have done it,since it used carts versus cd medium and low ram for space. I already stated this. The 4 Meg ram card could have helped,but honestly alot more would have been ideal for a title like Blazing Star if you wanted a perfect port.

Also,I'm not like you,I don't whine,bitch,piss,moan,and complain about any of my systems or their capabilities.Why? Because I don't buy systems I don't like or keep systems for 2-3 games so I can complain how I don't like the rest of the library,how it under performs,or how I have to waggle the controller :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 06:33:57 PM by Michael Helgeson »

Kitsunexus

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2007, 06:37:36 PM »
Somehow, I don't believe Nintendo's anti-graphicswhore sentiments to be true. I think a low demand for the Gamecube and a well stocked surplus of Gamecube chips is a more realistic theory for the Wii's shit graphics architecture..

Michael Helgeson

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2007, 06:42:52 PM »
Somehow, I don't believe Nintendo's anti-graphicswhore sentiments to be true. I think a low demand for the Gamecube and a well stocked surplus of Gamecube chips is a more realistic theory for the Wii's shit graphics architecture..

Impossible since they don't use the same chips Kits,so they are not left overs being used..... The chips used in the Wii ARE cost effective however,but alas are entirely new. Same as your new low cost X1600 graphics cards. They are made for the low end segment of the market.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 06:45:30 PM by Michael Helgeson »

Kitsunexus

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2007, 06:49:18 PM »
Impossible since they don't use the same chips Kits,so they are not left overs being used.....

You edited the part where you said Gamecube and Wii used the same GPU.e

Joe Redifer

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2007, 07:23:06 PM »
Please point out where I whine,bitch,piss,moan,and complain about the Wii's graphics in this thread.  Just because I don't sing it's praises to kingdom come doesn't mean I am complaining about it.  Like I said, I don't have a problem with the Wii's graphics.  If you want to interpret that as complaining, then have a fun time in your own little fantasy world.

You're right, we're not alike.  You get into many more internet arguments than I do.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 07:33:43 PM by Joe Redifer »

Michael Helgeson

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2007, 07:24:20 PM »
Impossible since they don't use the same chips Kits,so they are not left overs being used.....

You edited the part where you said Gamecube and Wii used the same GPU.e

No,actually I added the line at the end about the x1600 being low cost..... Its impossible for them to be the same cores,the features and core design are different.....I never once said they were the same,and if you look at my past post,I went into detail giving you the GPU specs. This must have all went over your head so maybe you should scroll back to page 4.....




I will break it down for you like this.
CPU DESIGN BETWEEN THE 2 SYSTEMS
Game Cube cpu system specs:
 IBM "Gekko" PowerPC CPU. 180 nm IBM copper-wire process,clocked at 486 MHz.


Wii cpu system specs:
 PowerPC-based "Broadway" processor, 90 nm SOI CMOS process,clocked at 729 MHz.

Wiis cpu is a far newer generation core,and is designed to be twice as fast as the older Gekko processor. Game developers when asked have rated the Broadway as being about as powerful as a Athlon Xp 2500+ as far as being able to run games goes. The original Gekko was about as powerful as a Athlon Thunderbird 1GHZ at its peak of optimization.

GPU DESIGN BETWEEN THE 2 SYSTEMS

GameCube GPU specs:
ATI Flipper 180 nm process,clocked at 162 mhz. 648 megatexels/second. 648 megapixels/second.
Basically about as good as a Radeon 7500 GPU. Direct X 7 generation

Wii GPU specs:
ATI Hollywood 90 nm process,clocked at 243 mhz. 1944 megatexels/second. 1944 megapixels/second.
Basically about as good as a Radeon 1400-1600XT Direct X 9 Generation

Both support FSAA.

Basically yea the Wii is tech wise 2-3 times as powerful,and its sad we are not seeing it.


Kitsunexus

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2007, 07:26:01 PM »
Yeah, I missed that. Sorry. After this thread stopped bing about the 3D0 I lost interest.

Michael Helgeson

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2007, 07:43:25 PM »
Also, I wish the Wii were as powerful as two Gamecubes taped together.  In reality it's closer to 1.2x the Gamecube.




I didn't say anything about that.  I just wanted to put people straight who might think the Wii is significantly more powerful than the Gamecube.  It barely is.

To me, there are 2 great games on the Wii and a few decent games.  One of the great ones is the aforementioned Metroid Prime 3 which benefits from the Wii controls greatly.  The other great one is Super Mario Galaxy which I think would be MUCH better if played with a standard controller.  The whole "star bits" thing is extraordinarily homosexual and adds nothing.  Waggling the remote to attack is also annoying.  The only decent thing the Wii Remote adds to the game is grabbing on to those blue stars which make that weird sound and pull you around, and that's not exactly something that makes the game great.  The decent games like Wario Ware and Kororinpa are cool, but I'd still rather play Gate of Thunder.

Uh, Micheal?  Throwing specs on paper around is one thing.  Real life is another (also you forgot about the extra memory).  Wii programmers have had plenty of time to take advantage of the extra capacity of the Wii, and the truth is that very few games have actually done it.  I think that perhaps Super Mario Galaxy couldn't be done on the Gamecube 100% and maybe Metroid Prime 3.  There might be a few other games I haven't seen, but I doubt it.  All I know is when I go and play Gamecube games, they really don't look any different, and original Xbox games still look better.

Also has anyone besides me noticed that the Wii loads data much slower than the Gamecube?  Those damn doors on Metroid Prime 3 are a good example.

Bottom line:  I don't expect Wii graphics to improve much in the future over what we are seeing now.



Your words,not mine.

Like I said,tech/spec wise it is alot more powerful then the Gamecube,they are just not tapping the extra power,and I wouldn't expect them to do so anytime soon,at least for another year as its only been out a tad over 1 year so far. This is always the common graphical roadmap for consoles graphically.They get better each year in terms of the visuals.

Kitsunexus

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2007, 07:45:34 PM »
The Bandai Playdia actually has better video playback than the Wii.

Joe Redifer

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2007, 07:56:57 PM »
Quote from: Michael

Your words,not mine.


Indeed.  But I fail to see how they are bitch/whine/complain/piss/moan words.  The worst thing I said was about the Mario star bits, and that has nothing to do with the Wii graphics technology.  Anyway, I hope we do see noticeably better graphics from the Wii some day, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Kitsunexus

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Re: 3DO - Hated, Loved, Feared?
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2007, 07:58:25 PM »
The only reason you guys like the Wii is because you can play Turbo games on it.

There. I said it.  Now can Wii stop discussing this shit console and talk about the 3D0, a much better investment?