HD-DVD officially dead (finally!)

[SignOfZeta]

I wonder when we'll get decent amount of completely uncompressed video & audio fitting into an optical disc? (Or at the very least, lossless video).

That came out ages ago. It was called Muse, and nobody bought it because it was hella expensive.

The problem with making a new format is that convenience is more important than quality. The CD is 25 years old, yet sadly its still the best sounding mainstream format...and its dying because people are buying 128kbs AACs from iTunes. People want the shitty sounding stuff because it fits into a smaller package. Example: Dark Fact up there that seems to be indicating that MP3 players are an advancement over CD players. Technologically they are, but most kids are listening to ultra shit quality 128kbs MP3. The best quality audio I can get on my iPod is a CD encoded to something that sounds as good as CD (wav, aiff, Apple Lossless). Almost without exception I can't get anything better than CD, which is sad because CD isn't even very good. Hell, my home computer can record 24-bit 96khz stereo uncompressed, but I can't buy anything that high quality because SACD and DVDA are flop formats with almost no titles worth purchasing. WTF?

I think one of many mistakes in the HD war is marketing these new formats as mainstream instead of connoisseur formats. Every since DVD came out I've been interested in the next thing. DVD wasn't actually an improvement over LD in every way. It was a somewhat lateral movement. Its better in some ways, but the real advantages over LD are the connivence and price. The things are small and cheap as hell, and so are the players. You don't have to flip them like LDs, or rewind them like tapes. They are so cheap that you don't have to take care of then like an LD that costs $40-100. Just buy another one for $10 when you scratch the hell out of it like a slob. Those are the reasons why DVD took off, and those sorts of changes aren't present in BR/HDDVD. In fact, BR and HDDVD are less convenient because ripping them is nearly impossible, there are no portable players (save $1800 laptops from Sony), etc.

The format war is over. I'm not happy that Sony came out on top, but oh well. I expect Toshiba to offer a dual format player quiet soon. They are going to have to make BluRay players eventually, so they might as well throw HDDVD playback in there for free.

[Keranu]

DVD wasn't actually an improvement over LD in every way. It was a somewhat lateral movement. Its better in some ways, but the real advantages over LD are the connivence and price. The things are small and cheap as hell, and so are the players. You don't have to flip them like LDs, or rewind them like tapes. They are so cheap that you don't have to take care of then like an LD that costs $40-100.

I agree with you somewhat. I think the average LD costs less than the average DVD actually. There are lots of collector LDs out there for anime nerds and stuff, but for people like me who just buy typical movies on LD, they're like a buck each online (but high-ish shipping). I personally don't mind flipping discs and kind of enjoy it actually (like old fashion breaks in theaters), even though there are dual sided players which make things a little easier.

But you're absolutely right: DVDs are cheap as hell, both the media and the players. I love my Panasonic LX-21 LD player because you can tell a lot of care went into the design for a very sturdy product, but I've come across so many DVD players that look like the companies just didn't give a damn. I've never had a LD skip or anything on me, but I've seen DVDs skip and make awfully annoying screetches several times because of a tiny scratch (it's even happened to brand new DVDs).

Another thing I hate about DVDs is how phony they are. With LD, you get true film transfers to match the original, but DVDs digitally encode the films and then try "touching up" on them with "digital enchancements" just ruining the original picture, not to mention the annoyance of digital artifact that likes to rear it's ugly head. I also hate it when DVDs add borders to a film and try selling it off as widescreen or do a awful job cropping the picture (example: Back to the Future triology).

Ever since I got into LD, I've pretty much figured I won't ever have to buy a DVD again unless it's something that's only available on DVD or something special like that. There are also old movies that aren't available on DVD and I imagine even less will be available with the new formats coming out and since I rarely come across a new movie I enjoy, I'm pretty much set with LD . In the odd cases that there is a new movie I like, I'll just download it.

[quoth09]

Not good news

That's where I stopped reading.

Too bad they cant HD-ify old movies like Indiana Jones... It would be neat to see it in real 1080p. Or higher.

Ever heard of The Pirate Bay?

These 3 quotes from this thread alone, prove that you obviously know nothing about movies, movie studios, transfers or anything else about the industry, not to mention you are nothing but a pirate that has no insight past their download speed. I modified this post from what I originally said, because I had completely forgotten that you were the one that I have heard other people talk about being a pirate so much on here. Completely slipped my mind, so I apologize for not remembering this sooner.

So, you just keep on downloading, and spewing out ignorance. You have no say in any of which format succeeds or doesn't last. People like you never put any money anywhere, and all you do is nay-say any hope of what could be good or well off, based on what company you think is 'cool'.

Now those who have been paying attention, could say I'm doing the same thing, by saying that all I'm going to do is download now. But here is the difference, I'm what you call a smart consumer. I've already been buying DVDs for 7 years or more, not to mention I am also into laserdisc collecting for about the same amount of time. I'm tired of spending endless amounts of money, just because these movie companies/studios decide what format makes it, and what new technology has to supersede the previous, that myself and others have already invested in. Leaving people high and dry is no way to treat a consumer, and it does nothing but piss people like myself off. They offer no upgrade programs, and throw the same old recycled shit in our faces, and I'm tired of it.

When they decide to start doing things right again, and I decide to jump into the market again, I will put my money where my mouth is, like I always have. Until then I will be using my money towards back releases, and other things like video games/arcade boards/laserdiscs, that won't get outdated, due to a format war.

[SignOfZeta]

I agree with you somewhat. I think the average LD costs less than the average DVD actually.

Well, now yeah. When LD was still a living format though $25 was considered a budget release, and on DVD that's almost as expensive as it gets. My most expensive LD (Macross: DYRL Perfect Edition CAV) had a price of 14,369 yen. $140 For one 2 hour film! My Aliens and Schindlers Lists boxes were something like $100 each.

I bought a batch of LDs when I was in Cali last summer. Great deals. I got both 2001 and 2010 as well as Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, and some other stuff. I also got a copy of The Jerk that was so old it said Discovision on it. Its of an *extremely* low quality. Pan and scanned and very blurry. Most of the stuff I bought was under $5 though, so LD is a great format to collect. Its kind of like vinyl at this point, except much harder to find.

[quoth09]

This sucks. Not good news at all. I was honestly hoping for HD-DVD to stay a lot longer, or pull through everything. But I guess consumers are stupid (not surprising).

The death of HD DVD has nothing to do with consumers. Very few people comparatively bought either format, it was the studios and retailers that killed the format...and quickly. Two months ago HD DVD was doing fine, and if we are supposed to think that there wasn't some sleazy back room shenanigans going on with Sony motivating this then they take us for morons.

Pretty much, and that is the point. There is no reason it should be dying. Kinda funny that there was an investigation last year into Sony paying companies to only release titles on BluRay. Now you hear nothing about it.
That's not fishy or anything... 

It also doesn't help that Wal-Mart (another monopoly) stopped carrying HD-DVD. Ma and Pa bumpkin only buy what is there.

[Keranu]

I agree with you somewhat. I think the average LD costs less than the average DVD actually.

Well, now yeah. When LD was still a living format though $25 was considered a budget release, and on DVD that's almost as expensive as it gets. My most expensive LD (Macross: DYRL Perfect Edition CAV) had a price of 14,369 yen. $140 For one 2 hour film! My Aliens and Schindlers Lists boxes were something like $100 each.

Doh, yeah I just realized that you were referring to prices when they were new before I read your post.   Yeah LDs were definitely pricey when new.

I bought a batch of LDs when I was in Cali last summer. Great deals. I got both 2001 and 2010 as well as Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, and some other stuff. I also got a copy of The Jerk that was so old it said Discovision on it. Its of an *extremely* low quality. Pan and scanned and very blurry. Most of the stuff I bought was under $5 though, so LD is a great format to collect. Its kind of like vinyl at this point, except much harder to find.

Totally. LDs are really fun to collect, not just for their price but for their awesome full-sized covers. Despite having a much bigger circumfrence than DVDs, I actually think LDs save space for me since their cases are so thin. They do get heavy though!

[quoth09]

I wonder when we'll get decent amount of completely uncompressed video & audio fitting into an optical disc? (Or at the very least, lossless video).

Not sure what the hell is going on with this, but they should get their ass in gear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

I heard about that 3 years ago.
That would end this format war, and allow for uncompressed everything.
That would probably be enough size disc for even quadruple the resolution uncompressed, but it would still require much, much higher end hardware.

[SignOfZeta]

Despite having a much bigger circumfrence than DVDs, I actually think LDs save space for me since their cases are so thin. They do get heavy though!

Oh yeah, for sure. My LD shelf is smaller than my DVD shelf and has twice as much stuff on it. Its about 100 lbs though, and not easy to transport. Same goes for records.

[nat]

You guys make me want to go out and buy a LaserDisc player.

[Keranu]

You guys make me want to go out and buy a LaserDisc player.

I was interested in LD for years and I finally let go and bought one last year. One of my favorite purchases . It can be hard finding a good, affordable player at first, but it's worth it I think.

[Necromancer]

Who says it is supposed to be revolutionary?  It is more "evolutionary" and HDTV is a big leap over SDTV.  DVD itself didn't even offer that big of a jump over VHS as Blu-Ray does over DVD... it was still standard definition. DVD = 720x480 vs about 300x480 for VHS.  Blu-Ray = 1920x1080 vs 720x480 for DVD.  The only extra thing DVD offered was menus (who cares?) and selectable special features.  What more would you have Blu-Ray add? 

Agreed, and the difference between DVD and S-VHS / LD / Hi8 is even closer.

But you're absolutely right: DVDs are cheap as hell, both the media and the players. I love my Panasonic LX-21 LD player because you can tell a lot of care went into the design for a very sturdy product, but I've come across so many DVD players that look like the companies just didn't give a damn. I've never had a LD skip or anything on me, but I've seen DVDs skip and make awfully annoying screetches several times because of a tiny scratch (it's even happened to brand new DVDs).

True, but only because most LD players were made for a niche market and never made it into mass production.  You shouldn't compare an expensive LD player to the cheapest piece of poo DVD player on the market.  Instead, compare your LD player to a quality unit, like one from Oppo.

Now those who have been paying attention, could say I'm doing the same thing, by saying that all I'm going to do is download now. But here is the difference, I'm what you call a smart consumer. I've already been buying DVDs for 7 years or more. I'm tired of spending endless amounts of money, just because these movie companies/studios decide what format makes it, and what new technology has to supersede the previous, that myself and others have already invested in. Leaving people high and dry is no way to treat a consumer, and it does nothing but piss people like myself off. They offer no upgrade programs, and throw the same old recycled shit in our faces, and I'm tired of it.

You're not a being savvy; you're being unreasonable.  DVD has been around for more than a decade thus far, and will likely remain the dominant format for years to come.  Expecting a single format to be supported forever is just nuts.  Nobody has left you 'high and dry', as your DVDs have no expiration date and will play in any of the next-gen players.  Sony isn't forcing you to do jack shit.

HD-DVD is undeniably inferior to Blu-Ray (30gb < 50gb), and the only reason that any studios originally backed it was because the discs were cheaper to make and therefor more profitable.  Studios aren't behind some conspiracy to ruin a format, but are merely businesses trying to maximize profits, and if Sony were to try to win in an underhanded war, they'd lose their asses to the masters on the HD-DVD side.

[Kitsunexus]

Why do you really want a stack of discs that take up a shitload of space, don't have a lot of movies available, and don't even have as many special features as DVD?

BTW, apparently the collector's edition of Pulp Fiction on DVD is a laser transfer, watch the deleted scenes.

[quoth09]

I wonder when we'll get decent amount of completely uncompressed video & audio fitting into an optical disc? (Or at the very least, lossless video).

That came out ages ago. It was called Muse, and nobody bought it because it was hella expensive.

The problem with making a new format is that convenience is more important than quality. The CD is 25 years old, yet sadly its still the best sounding mainstream format...and its dying because people are buying 128kbs AACs from iTunes. People want the shitty sounding stuff because it fits into a smaller package. Example: Dark Fact up there that seems to be indicating that MP3 players are an advancement over CD players. Technologically they are, but most kids are listening to ultra shit quality 128kbs MP3. The best quality audio I can get on my iPod is a CD encoded to something that sounds as good as CD (wav, aiff, Apple Lossless). Almost without exception I can't get anything better than CD, which is sad because CD isn't even very good. Hell, my home computer can record 24-bit 96khz stereo uncompressed, but I can't buy anything that high quality because SACD and DVDA are flop formats with almost no titles worth purchasing. WTF?

I think one of many mistakes in the HD war is marketing these new formats as mainstream instead of connoisseur formats. Every since DVD came out I've been interested in the next thing. DVD wasn't actually an improvement over LD in every way. It was a somewhat lateral movement. Its better in some ways, but the real advantages over LD are the connivence and price. The things are small and cheap as hell, and so are the players. You don't have to flip them like LDs, or rewind them like tapes. They are so cheap that you don't have to take care of then like an LD that costs $40-100. Just buy another one for $10 when you scratch the hell out of it like a slob. Those are the reasons why DVD took off, and those sorts of changes aren't present in BR/HDDVD. In fact, BR and HDDVD are less convenient because ripping them is nearly impossible, there are no portable players (save $1800 laptops from Sony), etc.

The format war is over. I'm not happy that Sony came out on top, but oh well. I expect Toshiba to offer a dual format player quiet soon. They are going to have to make BluRay players eventually, so they might as well throw HDDVD playback in there for free.

There is not a single thing above that I don't agree with.

I hope to get a MUSE system one day, but no telling when that will be. Even then, there aren't that many titles that really interest me on it, mainly b/c I just don't care to spend as much as people are getting for the players that are compatible with the format these days, not to mention buying the whole MUSE decoder and other equipment for it.

The way the market is going, is all about convenience. Apple/iTunes, and all these other online carriers are teaching the damn kids that MP3 is the way to go, b/c you need to carry it on you, on your player, on your phone, etc. I still buy CDs. I convert all my own MP3s, and at no lower than 320kbit for my own personal listening. 128 is ass, and 192 is borderline with me. Even when I first started doing MP3s of my own, I was doing 192. 320 sounds pretty much like CD to me, and it is much easier than digging out my originals all the time, so they stay safe in case something happens to the file. It is nothing once you learn how to encode your own files.

SACD flopped because of too much new hardware requirement and copy protection. I have a couple of them, and I can't even get the full quality out of them! My DVD player supposedly supports it, and I have a surround receiver, but I get nothing but stereo no matter what I do. Completely worthless (and now dead) format.

DVDA I also have a couple of as well. I am rather impressed with what I have heard, in comparison to the standard CD versions or even listening to it in 2.0 on the same disc. Very nice, and it's kinda sad that there is little done with this these days as there should be.

There are Dual players out now (albeit none by Toshiba), and also it is very easy to rip HD-DVD/BRs with AnyDVD supposedly.

[Keranu]

But you're absolutely right: DVDs are cheap as hell, both the media and the players. I love my Panasonic LX-21 LD player because you can tell a lot of care went into the design for a very sturdy product, but I've come across so many DVD players that look like the companies just didn't give a damn. I've never had a LD skip or anything on me, but I've seen DVDs skip and make awfully annoying screetches several times because of a tiny scratch (it's even happened to brand new DVDs).

True, but only because most LD players were made for a niche market and never made it into mass production.  You shouldn't compare an expensive LD player to the cheapest piece of poo DVD player on the market.  Instead, compare your LD player to a quality unit, like one from Oppo.

Actually my LD player isn't a fancy expensive one. I may not have used the finest of DVD players, but I think every DVD player I've used has all caused similar problems, some better than others. And again, it's not just the players, but the actual discs themselves too.

Why do you really want a stack of discs that take up a shitload of space, don't have a lot of movies available, and don't even have as many special features as DVD?

BTW, apparently the collector's edition of Pulp Fiction on DVD is a laser transfer, watch the deleted scenes.

Sarcasm?

[Kitsunexus]

Why do you really want a stack of discs that take up a shitload of space, don't have a lot of movies available, and don't even have as many special features as DVD?

BTW, apparently the collector's edition of Pulp Fiction on DVD is a laser transfer, watch the deleted scenes.

Sarcasm?

No, truth.