Author Topic: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM  (Read 858 times)

Everblue

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PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« on: September 09, 2008, 11:58:10 PM »
Hi there,

I just bought a pre-modded RGB PC Engine from a well known EBay PC Engine seller. I am very happy with it, great condition, and bright picture - there is one thing that annoys me.

There is vertical white banding every 2 cms or so on the screen, very faint, but visible, especially when there is a large area of the same colour on screen.

I have tried my PC Engine on two different TVs, with identical results.

What could be wrong? Can this be fixed?

Thank you in advance for any help!



E'Blue

ccovell

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2008, 02:21:05 AM »
I get this too on my own PC-Engine which I RGB modded myself.  I'm sure it means there's some power drain somewhere that could be improved a bit by adding capacitors...  but where exactly such a fix could be added, I have no idea.

Everblue

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2008, 02:54:27 AM »
I get this too on my own PC-Engine which I RGB modded myself.  I'm sure it means there's some power drain somewhere that could be improved a bit by adding capacitors...  but where exactly such a fix could be added, I have no idea.

I have asked the same thing to the seller, and this is the reply I got:

"I cannot comment on the lines on your TV, I test these on 2 different TVs and don't see a problem, the thing is the PC Engine does not naturally output RGB and it needs an amp inside the console to get a good picture. As long as I have this amp looking good on a plasma and a CRT in my house I am happy with sending them out, I never saw what you describe."

I have now tested on a THIRD TV set, a Sony Trinitron CRT, and YES, the problem is still there. I have no idea what to do anymore with this.

Maybe someone else can help?

ceti alpha

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2008, 03:26:47 AM »
I was thinking about getting an RGB or component mod for my duo at some point down the line, but maybe just getting a decent CRT is the best route for now. I'd also be curious to know if there is a fix for this issue as it would make getting an RGB mod much more enticing.  :mrgreen:


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Everblue

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2008, 03:49:48 AM »
Well to be honest, you wont see the white banding unless there is a big solid colour, and even then, only anally retentive people like myself are able to see it  [-(

ceti alpha

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2008, 05:17:27 AM »
Well to be honest, you wont see the white banding unless there is a big solid colour, and even then, only anally retentive people like myself are able to see it  [-(

I think the fact that I want to get the RGB mod in the first place illustrates my anal retentiveness.  :wink:


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Necromancer

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2008, 05:19:35 AM »
I think the fact that I want to get the RGB mod in the first place illustrates my anal retentiveness.  :wink:

That along with you being Canadian.  :P  Pbbbbt!
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ceti alpha

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2008, 05:22:57 AM »
I think the fact that I want to get the RGB mod in the first place illustrates my anal retentiveness.  :wink:

That along with you being Canadian.  :P  Pbbbbt!

haha. It always comes back to the Canuck.  :P



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Everblue

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2008, 08:54:53 AM »
Small update. I have checked my RGB Modded PCE in composite mode, and there is no banding of any sort. Obviously, the colours and image quality degrade a lot when compared to RGB.

Zeon

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2008, 09:21:07 AM »
I know this exact problem you describe, and I am almost 100% positive it is not the fault of a mod. This is because my duo, using standard official composite cables, exhibits the exact same problem. The reason I never noticed before is because I never played my duo on anything but a crt until last year. Not only the duo, but snes, genesis, sega master, they ALL do it to some degree, some more noticeable than others. The reason we never noticed it via composite in years past, is because we were all playing on crt's(or up to some point were).

It varies from crt to crt even, with my rgb modded tg-16 on a small crt completely unnoticeable, on a large crt, just barely noticeable, on a large lcd, more noticeable, lcd via composite noticeable, lcd stretched via composite, very noticeable. lcd stretched via component, well you get the idea...

I think it is a flaw of the design in these old systems that was overlooked, as you would probably never notice it on composite, or even s-video, or component on a 27" or less crt tv.

There is another very similiar problem atari 7800's exhibit when s-video modded due to the two separate luma(or chroma lines i can't remember) signals conflicting. Keep in mind crt's have a tendency to smear or blur edges and such faint lines would be completely unnoticeable on most crts via composite or even rgb. Also many people doing rgb mods on the old systems have reported the faint vertical lines. I think the reason some people notice it over others, is that usually no two people that have an rgb or component modded system have the exact same display setup, also differing degree's of vision, and peoples ability to distinguish fine details (on my rgb mod, my friend didn't even notice the vertical lines, until i pointed them out.) I believe there are things you could do to lessen the problem, but the fact is that the lines are a result of the systems design, not the parts used for the mod.

If only I had a dime for every person with a rgb modded system who has the lines...

Everblue

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2008, 09:30:10 AM »
Well, on the same TV, I tried other systems, an Amiga and an arcade super gun, both in RGB mode, and neither have any of the said banding. Remember I tried this on 3 TVs, and I got the same problem on ALL of them, and all of them are CRT. The seller has walked away on this problem, saying that on his CRT TV its fine.

On the other hand, displaying the console in composite, all these vertical lines are gone....

I really dont know what to think!

Duo_R

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2008, 10:49:16 AM »
ok has anyone tried using 220uf capacitors in the RGB lines (and maybe the sync line)? The + leg would go to the line coming in from the HU6260, and the - would go to the RGB Line Out to the TV. I have noticed the bands, and I think this might help. Maybe since the signal doesn't have caps or is amped I am noticing the lines. I am going to build a circuit to test this theory, and also put a fuse on the 5+ line (for safety) because I am using that for "other stuff."
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Zeon

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2008, 11:20:59 AM »
Well, on the same TV, I tried other systems, an Amiga and an arcade super gun, both in RGB mode, and neither have any of the said banding. Remember I tried this on 3 TVs, and I got the same problem on ALL of them, and all of them are CRT. The seller has walked away on this problem, saying that on his CRT TV its fine.

On the other hand, displaying the console in composite, all these vertical lines are gone....

I really dont know what to think!

Hmm what size, model #,  and brand are the 3 different tvs? You said rgb mode, so I am assuming they all support rgb natively. I know if the signal is pure rgb, the bands can sometimes be just barely noticeable on a crt especially large ones.

The composite thing makes sense as composite has all the video color signals and sync on one wire and then interpreted and separated when they reach the tv, therefore you lose a lot of video quality and fidelity. The subtle bands are lost because of this. It may be the case that the seller does not notice these bands on his display. Like I said there are probably ways to lessen these bands by filtering the lines, (don't know if the cap thing would work, likely you would get duller darker colors overall by doing that), I just don't know how to reliably do so, nor do I think many others know how either.

Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2008, 12:57:29 PM »
This is a common "issue" with the PC Engine or even the TurboGrafx.  Vertical stripes (though faint).  There are certain mods out there which use chips which do not have this problem, but as of now such a mod is pretty rare.  Basically the fact is this:  If you have a PC Engine-equivalent modded for RGB you're going to have vertical stripes.  Welcome to the club!  :)

ccovell

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Re: PC Engine - RGB MOD PROBLEM
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2008, 02:59:13 PM »
ok has anyone tried using 220uf capacitors in the RGB lines (and maybe the sync line)? The + leg would go to the line coming in from the HU6260, and the - would go to the RGB Line Out to the TV. I have noticed the bands, and I think this might help. Maybe since the signal doesn't have caps or is amped I am noticing the lines. I am going to build a circuit to test this theory, and also put a fuse on the 5+ line (for safety) because I am using that for "other stuff."

This is just my guess, but it will just serve to blur the image horizontally, in theory "eliminating" the lines but just because they're getting smeared more.  Lines on a display usually mean poor decoupling on video chips.  Decoupling means the small ceramic capacitors that go between the +5v and GND pins of computer chips.  Now how to fix that, again, I don't really know.