On the auto bailout

[Keranu]

I drive a crappy, but perfectly working, Saturn. So I voted American.

I thnk Hybrids are dumb too. You should choose if you want to go completely gas free or not.

[Necromancer]

It's a Ford for me, straight outta Michigan.

Point being, you cannot lay the blame entirely on the automakers-- some of the blame is due, most definitely, to the sheeple that herd to the dealerships in droves and lap the shit up like a baby yearning for his mother's tit. On the other hand, you can lay a lot of blame on the automakers for force-feeding this cowdung down the American public's throats for the past decade or so just to make a fast nickel.

I lay the blame almost entirely at the buyer's feet, as no manufacturer put a gun to the buyers' heads and made them buy what they didn't want; the manufacturers do share a small part of the blame though, since they promoted the hell out of these bad ideas on wheels.  That said, the big three in Japan aren't much less culpable, as they also build gas guzzling trucks and suvs (Honda less so, though their weak sauce Ridgeline gets similar mileage to far more capable full size pickups).

My car gets 36 MPG city.

Besting the EPA rating by nearly 40%, eh?  Impressive.

[guyjin]

I am also not a believer of man causing global warming.  Believe Al Gore all you want, but he's full of it.  It's kind of funny that back in 1973 they were all freaking out about global cooling, all caused by man using the same pollutants.  What's the next scare, global room temperature... caused by man?

so, because science was wrong before, it must be wrong now? you know better than that, Joe. 

[ceti alpha]

I own a Honda but the transmission was built in Japan, the engine built in the US and it was all assembled in Canada.  Therefore I cannot vote.

I am against the bailout.  The automakers need to learn from their mistakes if they are to survive, otherwise they'll think that if the worst happens, mommy will help them out.  a$$holes.

I am also against hybrids.  It takes nearly a decade to recoup the extra cost you pay for one on gas savings.  My car gets 36 MPG city.  Why would I want to pay extra for a huge, heavy battery that will need to be replaced eventually (for lots of $$$) and a "Hybrid" tag attached to the back of my car?  I am also not a believer of man causing global warming.  Believe Al Gore all you want, but he's full of it.  It's kind of funny that back in 1973 they were all freaking out about global cooling, all caused by man using the same pollutants.  What's the next scare, global room temperature... caused by man?

Yeah, I remember I had a Ford Probe that my dad passed down to me. While the frame/body was American, the engine was Mazda, and was assembled in Canada. Not too many "purebred" cars anymore.

I go by the "ShamWow" advertisement: "Made by the Germans. You know that the Germans always make great things."

[Joe Redifer]

Besting the EPA rating by nearly 40%, eh?  Impressive.

Actually, I'm a tad disappointed.  My 2003 Honda Civic usually got 41 mpg in the city.

I lay the blame almost entirely at the buyer's feet

Then why is it only the US automakers who are failing?

[Necromancer]

Actually, I'm a tad disappointed.  My 2003 Honda Civic usually got 41 mpg in the city.

I get 57 mpg in my car and pull sub 9 second E.T.s in the quarter mile.

Then why is it only the US automakers who are failing?

Their troubles can't so easily be explained; if it is that simple, then please explain why Ford isn't participating in the bailout.

Sales are down for everyone, but what really hurts the big three are the extensive legacy costs:
 
  1) Too many brands, especially in GM's case.  Multiple brands increase development costs and lessen the impact of advertising dollars without appreciably increasing sales, yet they can't easily (or cheaply) be phased out due to state laws protecting local dealerships.
  2) Too many stealerships.  They're expensive to equip and train, but as noted above, they can't be closed very easily.  The manufacturers could pass the burden on to the dealerships, but they'd just pass the increased cost on to the consumer, ending with overpriced product filling their lots.
  3) The ever rising cost of health care.  Until relatively recently, nearly all big three cars were built in the US and foreign cars were built in their respective homelands; meaning that the big three is paying for far more employees (past and present) receiving overpriced health care in the States, whereas the others can rely on socialized medicine.

[Joe Redifer]

Don't forget the auto unions.  Each person on the line makes about $75,000 or so.  Of course this is not good enough for them and they want more.  MOAR!!!!

[nodtveidt]

The auto bailout is failing in Congress, and I'm neither surprised nor disappointed. I hope some of them go under. Besides, they're just feeding off of the stupid bank bailout that passed earlier in the year...which was also unnecessary.

[ceti alpha]

Actually, sales aren't down for everybody. Toyota and VW, for instance, are seeing record sales. People are just turning to other cars.

I think there should be a bailout, but I believe that the public should have an interest in GM if/when this happens. GM should be held accountable on the product they roll out. If they are using public money, they should be forced to produce cars that are efficient. Period.

That being said, this whole "bail-out" thing with the banks is crazy. Socialism for the rich, pure capitalism for the poor and middle class. It reeks.

The invisible hand of capitalism is a myth. The free market has failed.

[Keranu]

I go by the "ShamWow" advertisement: "Made by the Germans. You know that the Germans always make great things."

Hahaha, I love that commercial and especially that line! 

[blueraven]

My thoughts on the Auto Bailout as a mechanic;

Where was congress in 1964 when Studebaker/Packard was in trouble?

South Bend, Indiana's economy was wiped out in 1964 as a result of this auto closure; despite engineering that was ahead of it's time (first American production car with Disc Brakes; standard on the Avanti in 1962, optional on the Lark and Hawk) they were unable to compete with the "Big Three" because of significant body style changes, a lack of effective marketing to youth, and poor buisness decisions made during the merger with Packard (based in Detroit) in 1958. They were the last of the independents.

The South Bend factory shut down in '64 and moved to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, producing vehicles from spare parts in 1965-66 with re-labeled Chevrolet engines (The Skybolt 6; a 235 Chevy 6 and the Thunderbolt; a 283 Chevy V8) until it's liquidation and conversion into the Studebaker-Worthington holding company, now an industrial finance division of the Bank of Long Island, NY.
 
Nash, De Soto, Hudson, and Kaiser/Fraiser (the other independents, plus a few others) were all merged (over the course of about 10 years, from around 1958 to 1968, give or take a few) to form AMC, which was then absorbed by Chrysler, and abandoned completely by Chrysler Corp by 1981. 

GM in the early 00's "introduced" sliding rear roof technology on the Hummer, H2, and Cadillac Wagons which was actually available on the Studebaker Lark Wagonaire, in 1962). They sued the two engineers that "resurrected" the Studebaker name in 2001 (basing the new Avanti on a Corvette chassis, and the XUV on the Hummer) for copyright infringement on the XUV model and settled out of court in 2004. GM claimed they copied the Hummer with the Studebaker XUV, and Studebaker claimed patent infringement on it's previous models. This drove Studebaker out of business once again...

I guess my point is that Studebaker never got a fair shake or a bailout. They had a superior product, and were ruined by poor decisions. My heart goes out to the folks back then in '64 and right now in '04-'08 who have lost their jobs and pensions. My friends at the Chrysler plant included, who make low $20K's and are now unemployed. They are the real victims here.

However, Studebaker wasn't bailed out of their situation, and therefore, in my opinion, neither should GM or Chrysler.  They destroyed the competition, "borrowed" from others, got greedy with SUV production, ignored the consumer, lured the poor into financing, and fought against safety regulations tooth and nail. Now it's coming back to bite them in the ass. They deserve a taste of their own cooking; It is certainly well-seasoned.

Here is a photo of a supercharged 1962 Avanti. In my opinion, It's the Mod-chipped RGB blue-LED Duo RX of automobiles. (24mpg hwy in 1962!) 




P.S. I have a 6-cyl 95 Ford Ranger as a work truck, and a Hot Rod on blocks. If I get another vehicle, It will be a 40+ mpg Honda or a hybrid/diesel Toyota pickup truck to replace the 150K Ranger.   

[Joe Redifer]

I hate blue LEDs.  So tacky, and way too damned bright.

[Necromancer]

Actually, sales aren't down for everybody. Toyota and VW, for instance, are seeing record sales. People are just turning to other cars.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about.  Here's the latest sales figures taken from the manufacturer's respective websites:

Toyota - November sales down 33.9% compared to November 2007; year to date sales down 10.4% compared to same time last year (September was the last time that YTD numbers were given, but sales were down 29.5% in September and 25.9% in October, so the current total is obviously a lot higher than 10.4%).
VW - November sales down 19.2% compared to November 2007; year to date sales down 2.1% compared to same time last year.

For comparison, here's a few more:

Honda - November sales down 31.6% compared to November 2007; year to date sales down 5.8% compared to same time last year.
GM - November sales down 41% compared to November 2007; I can't find year to date sales figures.
Chrysler - November sales down 47.1% compared to November 2007; year to date sales down 27.7% compared to same time last year.
Ford - November sales down 30.6% compared to November 2007; year to date sales down 19.7% compared to same time last year.
Hyundai - November sales down 40% compared to November 2007; year to date sales down 11% compared to same time last year.

I think there should be a bailout, but I believe that the public should have an interest in GM if/when this happens. GM should be held accountable on the product they roll out. If they are using public money, they should be forced to produce cars that are efficient. Period.

Still clueless, eh?  They're already building fuel efficient cars.

Chevy Aveo - 27/34
Honda Fit - 27/33
Nissan Versa - 26/31
Toyota Yaris - 29/36

Chevy Cobalt - 25/37
Honda Civic - 26/34
Nissan Sentra - 25/33
Toyota Corolla - 26/35

Chevy Malibu - 22/30
Honda Accord - 22/31
Nissan Altima - 23/31
Toyota Camry - 21/31

Chevy Silverado - 14/19
Honda Ridgeline - 15/20  <--not really a competitor, but as close as it gets
Nissan Titan - 13/17
Toyota Tundra - 13/17

Chevy HHR - 16/23 (21/29 in SS trim <--WTF?!?)
Honda Element - 20/25
Nissan Rogue - 22/27
Toyota Matrix - 26/32

Chevy Equinox - 17/24
Honda CR-V - 20/27
Toyota RAV4 - 21/27

Chevy Traverse - 17/24
Honda Pilot - 17/23
Nissan Pathfinder - 15/22
Toyota Highlander - 18/24

Chevy Tahoe - 14/20
Nissan Armada - 12/18
Toyota Sequoia - 14/19

As you can see, GM's fuel efficiency is quite competitive when compared to the Japanese big three (all numbers were culled from MSN).  The only place that they don't compete is the small CUV market, as the HHR doesn't really fit in and the Equinox is V6 only.

Where was congress in 1964 when Studebaker/Packard was in trouble?

The failure of even one of the big three would damage the economy on a far greater scale than the failure of Studebaker.  If a US company similar is size to Subaru or Saab were failing today, nobody would care.

[nodtveidt]

The failure of even one of the big three would damage the economy on a far greater scale than the failure of Studebaker.  If a US company similar is size to Subaru or Saab were failing today, nobody would care.

Of course, neither Subaru nor SAAB supports U.S. politicians...

[nectarsis]

Saab has been a GM brand for years now.