Author Topic: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.  (Read 68439 times)

Necromancer

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #840 on: October 02, 2009, 09:19:41 AM »
Top men are looking into that possibilty. Top men.

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Tom

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #841 on: October 02, 2009, 10:21:22 AM »

Now thats a good looking bonk screenshot, the original Bonk is a bit dated when compared to Revenge,III and super Bonk, an upgrade like this would be great.


 Definitely. I could do some... 3-4 layers of parallax on that too with some tricks :D

esteban

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #842 on: October 02, 2009, 07:33:43 PM »
Definitely. I could do some... 3-4 layers of parallax on that too with some tricks :D


Oh dear Lord, the second coming of Bonk. Why, it's...



Damn.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 07:38:08 PM by esteban »
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awack

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #843 on: October 03, 2009, 07:41:06 AM »
Sticking with the Halloween theme.....Cotton.


The screen shots are from the first three levels only.

PCE                                               SNES





Special fx/animation sprite rips.

                                           PCE 31 frames



             SNES 10 frames





                                          PCE 17 frames


            SNES 7 frames



PCE fire #1 12 frames, bubble 11 frames, fire #2 13 frames, cloud 18 frames.                                              



SNES fire #1 4 frames, bubble 4 frames, fire #2 4 frames, cloud  5 frames.                    
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 09:00:05 AM by awack »

sunteam_paul

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #844 on: October 03, 2009, 08:18:03 AM »
The SNES looks much nicer, more fairytale like. I always thought the PCE graphics were a little rough.
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Joe Redifer

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #845 on: October 03, 2009, 11:48:36 AM »
But Halloween is about being scared.  The PCE one looks scary and makes me wet my pants just like everything at Halloween does because it is just so scary.  The SNES one makes me feel all warm, fuzzy, secure and safe.

Anyway, we're gonna be sticking with a Halloween theme for a looong time since it is still so damned far away.  Shit, my grocery store started stocking Halloween candy and stuff 3 weeks ago!  Shouldn't we be decorating for Christmas already?  Jesus H Christ (the "H" stands for Hernandez).
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 11:50:26 AM by Joe Redifer »

Arkhan

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #846 on: October 03, 2009, 12:53:42 PM »
You know.

I think the whole PCE > everything thing boils down to this:





Yuko panty tiem.


PCE wins! thats a wrap!  Good show  :dance:


edit: Figures, theyre transparent gifs and the black outline is the transparency.  >_<
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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SignOfZeta

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #847 on: October 03, 2009, 02:41:41 PM »
Quote from: Black Tiger

The PCE can do great looking transparencies with flickering,

Yeah, sort of. It would be more accurate to say that on very rare occasions is does decent transparencies but usually it just does...flickering. The ones you pointed out are particularly nice since they are flickering and cycling, which, off the top of my head, I can't remember seeing a SNES do. Can the SNES do color cycling of hardware transparencies? It seems like it could, but I can't remember seeing it done. My main point though is that the PCE can't do something as simple as, say, a super bomb in Super Metroid. On the surface this may seem "unfair" since the super bomb was clearly inspired by hardware FX built into the SNES (ie: it was "designed around the hardware") but the reality is that there are loads of SNES games with fantastic transparencies that can't be done on the PCE, or at least not as well because that flickering stuff usually looks like total shit. The other big problem is that the PCE can't vary/fade the transparency, just change the rate of flicker, which is extremely un-smooth looking.

Quote
Isn't Seiken Densetsu 3 only 32 megs, why wouldn't 18 megs be enough CD access?

That was me getting side tracked. Since well made original (ie: non-port) Arcade Card titles are hella rare I was thinking in Super CD mode.

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What exactly goes on in SD3 that the PCE couldn't even touch?

The scaling and the transparency, mostly. If you can play SD3 and actually believe that a PCE could do anything like a decent port of it, then I guess I can't penetrate your PCE obedience layer. I mean, people here like to laugh at how pathetic Dracula XX is compared to the PCE version, but if there were a PCE version of SD3 it would be even more pathetic. I might actually be better in some ways (ie: more animation) but flickering stuff that is supossed to be transparent and pre-rendered animations instead of actual scaling only work in really narrow applications. I currently don't even own a SNES, but I do know the difference between reality and fantasy, theory and practical application, being a connoisseur and being an obedient otaku. The Square-style "big budget RPG" just goes over better on SNES. Likewise, the more simplistic (in a good way), cinema/redbook/etchie stuff goes over better on PCE. For example, there is a SFC version of Emerald Dragon and I'm sure it makes us all laugh.

Tom

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #848 on: October 03, 2009, 03:16:10 PM »

The scaling and the transparency, mostly. If you can play SD3 and actually believe that a PCE could do anything like a decent port of it, then I guess I can't penetrate your PCE obedience layer. I mean, people here like to laugh at how pathetic Dracula XX is compared to the PCE version, but if there were a PCE version of SD3 it would be even more pathetic. I might actually be better in some ways (ie: more animation) but flickering stuff that is supossed to be transparent and pre-rendered animations instead of actual scaling only work in really narrow applications. I currently don't even own a SNES, but I do know the difference between reality and fantasy, theory and practical application, being a connoisseur and being an obedient otaku. The Square-style "big budget RPG" just goes over better on SNES. Likewise, the more simplistic (in a good way), cinema/redbook/etchie stuff goes over better on PCE. For example, there is a SFC version of Emerald Dragon and I'm sure it makes us all laugh.

 So... what, are transparencies and scaling 80% of the game experience or something?

Quote
I currently don't even own a SNES, but I do know the difference between reality and fantasy, theory and practical application, being a connoisseur and being an obedient otaku.

 Not to be snide, but obviously you don't. There's nothing in SD3 that can't be done on the PCE per se, minus some eye candy transparencies/etc. There's nothing particular special about the SD3's game engine. Actually, it's typical snes: little-to-average action onscreen (enemies, particle fx), little-to-average frames of animation. It's about the presentation and high production value of the story/layout/design/etc that are expected of Squaresoft. That's what makes it good game. The game has nice graphics, but the PCE got the subpalettes to back that up.


Quote
I mean, people here like to laugh at how pathetic Dracula XX is compared to the PCE version, but if there were a PCE version of SD3 it would be even more pathetic.

 Yeah, laugh at the port itself - not what the system itself can do. Obviously. It's not like the SNES *couldn't* handle the animation of the PCE port, it's that the port didn't. That's the key. Dracula XX on the SNES isn't an indication of the limitations of the SNES itself. Matter of fact, except for the gameplay difference - the game itself would have been a perfectly fine port/version/reimagined whatever. Even with the loss of animation due to cart constraints.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 03:30:04 PM by Tom »

Arkhan

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #849 on: October 03, 2009, 03:40:56 PM »
I think aside from the googley eyecandy, SD3 would turn out better on the PCE because of the colors/paletteage.


Plus it'd be super CD, so , hello better music, and cutscenes.


I love SD3 to death but the color choices are dull.  Like Emerald Dragon on SNES did.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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ParanoiaDragon

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #850 on: October 03, 2009, 03:51:44 PM »
I've mentioned this before, but, Shapeshifter has to have the best transparency I've ever seen on the Turbo, unless my eyes decieve me, it looks flawless.

SignOfZeta

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #851 on: October 03, 2009, 06:33:54 PM »
Quote from: Tom

 So... what, are transparencies and scaling 80% of the game experience or something?


I'd say they are as relevant to gameplay as the superior animation and music in the PCE version of Drac X.

We've all been looking at these Word Heroes comparisons and being very impressed with the PCE version. (IMO Fatal Fury Special is an even better example of the PCE's potential.) Nobody ever poo poo-ed that trend and mentioned that the gameplay is basically identical in all three versions.

This thread is called "PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison" for a reason. We are comparing (not ignoring) the graphics, in case you didn't notice. The C64 could probably give us the identical gameplay experience of SD3, but I don't think it would be as loved of a game if it had crusty-ass C64 graphics. Likewise, Emerald Dragon and Advanced V.G. play just fine on SNES, and I think the Sinclair could give us the same gameplay experience that we get in Snatcher.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 06:37:49 PM by SignOfZeta »

Black Tiger

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #852 on: October 03, 2009, 09:09:24 PM »
My main point though is that the PCE can't do something as simple as, say, a super bomb in Super Metroid. On the surface this may seem "unfair" since the super bomb was clearly inspired by hardware FX built into the SNES (ie: it was "designed around the hardware") but the reality is that there are loads of SNES games with fantastic transparencies that can't be done on the PCE, or at least not as well because that flickering stuff usually looks like total shit. The other big problem is that the PCE can't vary/fade the transparency, just change the rate of flicker, which is extremely un-smooth looking.

Most transparency effects I've seen in SNES games have been cheap effects to save on space instead of using actual artwork/unique graphics. Same with non 3D terrain Mode 7 effects. The Super Metroid Super Bomb is a good example of something that could be done way better using actual graphics instead of a colored circle.


Quote
The scaling and the transparency, mostly. If you can play SD3 and actually believe that a PCE could do anything like a decent port of it, then I guess I can't penetrate your PCE obedience layer.

I haven't actually played through SD3, I've only seen lots of screen shots and videos. For years I thought that it was supposed to be an unbelievable game visually (until I got to watch decent gameplay videos). Although it looks very nice for what it is, it suffers from Square SNES cart game weaknesses. The 3D map wouldn't be done the same on PCE, which would be fine by me since I'm not a fan of 360 degree world maps for RPGs. Otherwise the only scaling effects I saw were the weakest visuals in the game and were essentially non-graphic substitutes for real spell effect artwork.

The transparencies seem to be almost exclusively made up of full screen color tinting, which is easy to do without hardware transparency effects (I believe that Lunar EB Sega-CD does them with color cycling). Blood Gear actual does a superior version of background color tinting. When the background is lit up by red lights, hidden details emerge with unique art where shadows once were.


Quote
I mean, people here like to laugh at how pathetic Dracula XX is compared to the PCE version, but if there were a PCE version of SD3 it would be even more pathetic. I might actually be better in some ways (ie: more animation) but flickering stuff that is supossed to be transparent and pre-rendered animations instead of actual scaling only work in really narrow applications.

It's the scaling effects that are pathetic and need to be replaced by actual artwork with animation. Pretty much every scene I've seen of the game would look better if done different. It's not even about SNES vs PCE, it's really a case of Square-cart-game vs removing overall storage restrictions and bad Square habits. SD3 could look so much better on SNES too (and yes even on Genesis/Sega-CD).


Quote
I currently don't even own a SNES, but I do know the difference between reality and fantasy, theory and practical application, being a connoisseur and being an obedient otaku. The Square-style "big budget RPG" just goes over better on SNES. Likewise, the more simplistic (in a good way), cinema/redbook/etchie stuff goes over better on PCE. For example, there is a SFC version of Emerald Dragon and I'm sure it makes us all laugh.

It's still just tiles and sprites. You can port them all over across the 16-bit consoles. Even if Square SNES games had made better use of Mode 7 and transparencies, there are always different things that could be substituted that may or may not better suit other hardware. But for what was actually released, pretty much every spell in Square SNES RPGs would look better on any 16-bit console if redone. Also, compare the second stage boss of Forgotten Worlds for Genesis and Turbo/PCE to see what a difference balls as limbs makes.

Any limitations of the SNES Emerald Dragon wouldn't be a result of the hardware, just as Drac XX wasn't butchered because the SNES couldn't handle it.


Quote from: Tom
So... what, are transparencies and scaling 80% of the game experience or something?

I'd say they are as relevant to gameplay as the superior animation and music in the PCE version of Drac X.

The gameplay in Drac XX is broken for reasons separate from the aesthetics, but to combine your point with Tom's-

Are transparencies and scaling 80% of the aesthetic experience or something?
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SignOfZeta

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #853 on: October 03, 2009, 11:05:03 PM »
I'm not at all surprised that this conversation has been distilled to this:

"The PCE can't do transparencies."

"Yes it can, with flickering, just don't play if you are epileptic and you'll be fine."

"Well, those look like shit."

"Well, I never liked real transparencies anyway. They are cheap."

The perfect defense of a console's inability to do something; "I never liked that anyway".

While you may have preferred actual animation to a Metroid super bomb, the reality is that most people thought that was cool as hell when they saw it. Sure, its not critical to gameplay, but it is somewhat intertwined. The main use of a super bomb is to reveal breakable blocks or hidden items, and the way the circle expands out does this in a way where...well, I'm not sure it would be as cool with animations. Would the smoke and fire obscure the items the bomb would reveal until they disappeared? It wouldn't have the same "reveal" to it. I mean, if George Lucas made Star Wars with a 16mm camera, used black and white film, and paper airplanes flung through the air instead of state of the art models, would it be as good of a movie? Considering the plot is weak I'd say it wouldn't be as valuable of an artistic contribution. Does this mean that it was crap all along, and the FX were just blinding us? Maybe so, but it doesn't change the fact that nobody would have given a shit about the series if it wasn't (for the time) cutting edge. Would Citizen Cane be the same if it were shot on a PXL2000?

As for Mode 7, I seem to remember Super Mario Kart outselling virtually every PCE racing game ever made combined (do not take that literally) so while Mode 7 is "cheap and tacky" to hard core PCE fans, the reality is that it allowed for a gameplay mechanic that obliterated all the Pole Position/Outrun systems that had been in use since Night Driver when the power (and expertise) didn't exists to do polygons in a usable manor on home consoles. Mario Kart was vastly more playable and competitive than any racing game ever made up until that point, and its very nature simply cannot be duplicated on PCE because it had you actually moving around a map, instead of just showing you an animation of what might be a single point of view from what might be a map. SMK was to racing what SFII was to fighting games. In fact, Super Mario Kart easily remained the best/only competitive home racing experience until Ridge Racer was released for PS, and that required two consoles and...still wasn't as fun...but I digress. Now, I'm not saying that Mode 7 alone made SMK what it was (Mode 7 made several lesser racing games go) but it was essential, and it cannot be duplicated on PCE.

I'm sure you probably think that Chase H.Q. or Outrun are just as great at being skill intensive two player racing games. I might point out that they are single player. This is where you will say that multi-player racing is a tacky cheat anyway. So, I guess there is just no convincing some people. If that's the case, then I'm talking to a fanatical brick wall, so f*ck it. I might as well be arguing global warming on the 700 Club's blog.

Here's what I think: PCE developers would have LOVED to have had access to Mode 7 and transparencies when they were making these games we love so much, and if they had you wouldn't be arguing against them...or if you were, you'd be doing it on a Mega Drive forum. If the guys who programed LoX could make that water actually transparent instead of spazzy flickering stuff they would do it in an instant and never look back. Maybe you wouldn't, but they would, and nobody would have complained.

Tatsujin

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Re: PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison.
« Reply #854 on: October 04, 2009, 12:18:49 AM »
always loved how the clouds disappearing in the PCE port.looks even more fantastic than in the arcade version!
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