New fuel economy standards

[Necromancer]

Link

Interesting and a laudable idea, but I'm not sure how feasible it is.  Only the hybrids, Smart Fortwo golf carts, and diesel VeeDubs can currently meet 40mpg, so it'll be interesting to see what can be done to improve mileage by such a drastic amount in a relatively short time.  My biggest fear is that this will actually hurt the overall mileage average, as more people will turn to light trucks (and their lower required mileage) to get the size they want.  What do y'all think, or do you even give a hoot?

[RoyVegas]

I think we will see alot of changes in the near future.  I can tell you that someone I know has developed an invention that, once installed in a car/truck, increases the gas mileage by 30%.  He is currently marketing it to large fleet vehicles.  He chooses not to sell to the average consumer because its not worth the hassle.  This being the case, a regular joe figuring out something like this in his garage, the technology is here.  Its just a matter of who market it to the main stream public.

[nat]

The technology is already there, has been for some time.

The big pushback is from the major oil companies who have everything to lose from higher MPG regulations and alternative energy. Lobbyists can have a major influence.

[SignOfZeta]

40 MPG cars have been around...for ages. There was shit in 1950s that got that. Deathtraps, of course, but they could do it.

The truth is that everything car makers gain by using loads of lightweight alloys and composites, cylinder management, hybrid drivelines, aerodynamics, etc gets pissed away because the cars just keep getting bigger and bigger. A new Miata weighs 200 lbs more than my 1992 model, even though the new one has all sorts of weight saving tricks. Mine has an friggn iron block, almost no aluminum at all really, and weighs 200 lbs less. The new Honda Insight gets 43MPG. Pretty good? Not really when you consider that the 2000 model got 61 MPG with much much less tech.

The reason cars get the same overall fuel economy today as they did 25 years ago (or worse, in the case of companies like Toyota and Honda) is because MPG just isn't a priority for Americans. They want SIZE, and no matter what tricks you use volume makes the car harder to push through the air at higher speeds, and weight makes it more difficult to move at all. People wanted more HP, and because of that a new VW GTI has twice of power of the 1986 model I owned, but the MPG is basically the same. If we make it a priority then it will happen, and honestly we don't need one scrap of new tech to do it. Just shovel all those f*cking minivans and SUVs into a big smelting pit and start offering some diesel and we're there. A Bluemotion Golf (not a US model, of course) gets 52 MPG. That's just a relatively normal diesel engine, no Hybrid stuff.

Personally, I don't think the new standards are tough enough.

[nectarsis]

The new Honda Insight gets 43MPG. Pretty good? Not really when you consider that the 2000 model got 61 MPG with much much less tech.

And the original was a shoebox, new model has more SIZE

GEN 1
Model year(s)    2000–2006
Assembly    Suzuka, Mie, Japan
Successor    Honda Civic Hybrid
Class    subcompact
Body style(s)    3-door hatchback
Layout    Front-engine, front-wheel drive
Engine(s)    Gasoline: 995 cc (60.7 cu in) lean-burn I3 12-valve SOHC
Electric: 144 volt 10 kW
Transmission(s)    5-speed manual
Continuously variable transmission
Wheelbase    2,400 mm (94 in)
Length    3,945 mm (155.3 in)
Width    1,695 mm (66.7 in)
Height    1,355 mm (53.3 in)
Curb weight    Manual w/o AC 838 kg (1,850 lb)
Manual w/ AC 852 kg (1,880 lb)
CVT w/ AC 891 kg (1,960 lb)


GEN 2
Manufacturer    Honda
Also called    Honda Insight Hybrid
Production    2009-
Assembly    Suzuka, Mie, Japan[13]
Class    midsize car
Body style(s)    5-door hatchback
Layout    front-engine, front-wheel drive
Engine(s)    1,339 cc (81.7 cu in) I4 DC electric motor
Transmission(s)    CVT
Wheelbase    2,552 mm (100.5 in)
Length    4,390 mm (173 in)
Width    1,695 mm (66.7 in)
Height    1,425 mm (56.1 in)
Curb weight    1,237 kg (2,730 lb)
Fuel capacity    40 l (8.8 imp gal)


A LOT bigger difference than the 200lb. Miata difference

[Necromancer]

The technology is already there, has been for some time.

True, but in what form?  Hybrids can make it, but at substantial cost and nowhere near enough batteries to go around to make all new cars as hybrids; diesels are there as well, but again at a sizable price increase.  They could start selling gutless wonders (like the 70hp I3 Insight touted by Zeta), but who will buy 'em?  I don't doubt that cars can meet the new standards, but I fear they'll come with a bucket of boredom in the trunk and a big dent in the wallet.

The truth is that everything car makers gain by using loads of lightweight alloys and composites, cylinder management, hybrid drivelines, aerodynamics, etc gets pissed away because the cars just keep getting bigger and bigger.

Agreed, but they've added new models to fill the bottom shelf as cars grew (new Civic = old Accord and new Fit = old Civic).  The bigger problem is power.  I find it quite nutty that the average V6 powered grocery-getter is more powerful than a fifteen year old M3.

A new Miata weighs 200 lbs more than my 1992 model, even though the new one has all sorts of weight saving tricks. Mine has an friggn iron block, almost no aluminum at all really, and weighs 200 lbs less.

Case in point: 10% more weight but 40% more power.  I'm certain the mileage would be much improved had they maintained the same power to weight ratio, but then we're back to slower and less fun.

Just shovel all those f*cking minivans and SUVs into a big smelting pit and start offering some diesel and we're there.

But they're in a different class and don't have to meet the same mileage requirements.  The biggest reason that they are popular is because people want big powerful vehicles and it's easier for manufacturers to meet that need with light trucks.  The disparity between mileage requirements remains in the new rules, which is why I fear these new standards won't help as much as they could.

A Bluemotion Golf (not a US model, of course) gets 52 MPG. That's just a relatively normal diesel engine, no Hybrid stuff.

It's also dirt slow, won't meet US emissions, and starts at nearly $30,000.  If I'm going to be forced into a slowmobile, I'd rather pay half for a similarly sized Nissan Versa; sure, it'll get a third less mileage, but an extra $15,000 in my pocket will pay for a pant load of gas.

[guyjin]

They could start selling gutless wonders (like the 70hp I3 Insight touted by Zeta), but who will buy 'em? 

I would. I don't drive for fun (that's impossible with all these Omaha drivers around), I drive to go where I want to go.

[Necromancer]

I would. I don't drive for fun (that's impossible with all these Omaha drivers around), I drive to go where I want to go.

That's great, your local Smart dealership awaits your visit.  Don't get me wrong, everyone should have the option to buy the car that fits their needs and budget; I'd rather forgo a few mpg for something more fun, like a Versa or Fit.  I'll gladly pay a few bucks more at the pump and not have to drive something so slow that I have to bury the pedal in the carpet just to attain interstate merging speeds (quarter mile of 19.9 seconds @ 68mph).

[guyjin]

That's great, your local Smart dealership awaits your visit. 

I would, but I can't afford new cars. For now, my choices are likely mid to late 90s cars.

[Joe Redifer]

Only the hybrids, Smart Fortwo golf carts, and diesel VeeDubs can currently meet 40mpg

My 2003 Honda Civic EX (manual transmission) regularly got 41+mpg in the city.  No hybrid, no diesel.  My dad has some sort of hybrid (it's not a Prius, I forget what it is) and it gets about the same or maybe even less mpg than my 2003 Civic did, yet it cost way more and has a giant battery that will slowly lose charge capacity and eventually end up in a landfill.  In fact it would take 10 years of driving a hybrid just to BREAK EVEN on what you save in gas compared to the extra amount of $$$ you pay for them.  Hybrids are a true rip off.  My 2008 Honda Civic EX (manual transmission again, of course) gets around 35-36mpg city.  Pisses me off, but the car is a bit heavier and has a bit more HP and that's why.

The old Geo Metro got some crazy-ass MPG as well.

[Necromancer]

My 2003 Honda Civic EX (manual transmission) regularly got 41+mpg in the city.  No hybrid, no diesel. 

Your experience is anything but typical.  If you're going to use anecdotal evidence of your car far exceeding the rated mpg, then why not use a similar number for hybrids?  Car and Driver took a first gen. Insight and managed to get over 120mpg over a 195 mile trip, so that must be normal, right?  The thin mountain air must be affecting your logic centers. 

My dad has some sort of hybrid (it's not a Prius, I forget what it is) and it gets about the same or maybe even less mpg than my 2003 Civic did, yet it cost way more and has a giant battery that will slowly lose charge capacity and eventually end up in a landfill.  In fact it would take 10 years of driving a hybrid just to BREAK EVEN on what you save in gas compared to the extra amount of $$$ you pay for them.  Hybrids are a true rip off.

Indeed.  The only way they ever pay for themselves is when you can get a fat tax break or you really value the warm fuzzy feeling that comes from saving Mother Earth.

The old Geo Metro got some crazy-ass MPG as well.

So?  It's a 70hp crap-skate that would have no chance of meeting modern safety standards or emissions requirements.

[Joe Redifer]

I don't really understand why you are trying to argue with me, Necro.  I am stating what my car got, what my dad's hybrid gets and that Geo Metros were good for MPG.  What is the point that you are trying to argue, Mr. Logic?  However Zeta is correct, cars exceeding 40mpg have been around for a long, long time.

[Necromancer]

I don't really understand why you are trying to argue with me, Necro.  I am stating what my car got, what my dad's hybrid gets and that Geo Metros were good for MPG.  What is the point that you are trying to argue, Mr. Logic?  However Zeta is correct, cars exceeding 40mpg have been around for a long, long time.

No argument but rather an attempt to steer you back to the topic, which is about the feasibility of current/future autos meeting future mpg standards.  Said standards are based on the EPA mpg test procedure, so anecdotal evidence about your car far surpassing the EPA mpg is entirely irrelevant, as is the mpg of discontinued autos that wouldn't pass current emission/safety requirements.

[Joe Redifer]

Not really irrelevant because it goes to show you that it can be done with existing technology.  Current autos won't have to comply.  Do you really think you can get a 1984 Ford F150 to comply?  No way, that's just silly.  Future autos, yes.  Though I'd love to see all current SUVs taken away by Mr. Obama because they couldn't comply.

[Necromancer]

Not really irrelevant because it goes to show you that it can be done with existing technology.

Of course it can be done with existing technology, as shown with the vehicles listed in my initial posting.  Your two examples remain mostly irrelevant because we'd need a crystal ball to know whether or not the old Metros could still achieve such high mileage after being modified to pass current emissions/safety testing, and a 2003 Civic EX simply would not meet the requirement (EPA tested mileage is only 32/38 and only 27/35 using the revised test method).  My whole point is that it seems impracticable to make such substantial gains in mileage in such a short amount of time, not that it can't be done at all.

Current autos won't have to comply.  Do you really think you can get a 1984 Ford F150 to comply?  No way, that's just silly.

Sorry for not being more clear, but that's not what I meant by 'current'; I meant 'models currently being sold as new'.  The new mpg standards will have to be chiefly met by modified versions of today's platforms, as it is nigh impossible (in economic terms) for almost every current model to be completely redesigned, thoroughly tested, and its factories refit and ready for construction in little more than five years.