Author Topic: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS  (Read 1673 times)

Zeon

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Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« on: May 29, 2009, 04:30:17 PM »
So this has been boggling my mind for some time. Whenever Lunar: The Silver Star Story is brought up, almost always everyone is quick the bash the psx version, and they go on and on about how much better the Sega CD original was. The most common point is that they "screwed up the story", but I fail to see how. Sure they changed the story a bit, but honestly it's no better or worse than the original. It's kinda hard to screw up a typical cliched jrpg story line. The original Lunar was rushed out of the doors in an attempt to save the Sega CD from certain doom, and it was left largely unfinished (evidenced by 2 "important" characters that are only given an introduction and seen in a single battle near the very end of the game and never again, the fact that there was no "greater" evil, a formula that most jrpgs even at that time stuck to, the extremely short length of the game, and the general lack of polish in much of the game) I think the psx version, while probably not what the original would have represented had it been given more time to finish, is a much more finished product. It's much longer, has quite a bit more attention to detail, and generally more polished.

The battle system had a little more to it and and bosses required a lot more attention and wise use of resources than the original. They gave Alex a voice when they shouldn't have, but in both games the VA is about equally as bad(with Nall being the only truly ear grating voice), just the psx version has more of it. I like the fact that Alex had sword skills instead of learning magic like the original, as it made a lot more sense for his character. The psx version added a fair amount of new sidequests and secrets, which the original, sadly, lacked severely. Overall though most of the changes were just different, and not in a good or bad way.

I prefer the music of the original a little more, but honestly neither game has a  truly outstanding soundtrack. It gets the job done though which is fine by me.

I loved the original when I got it, but was sorely disappointed when I beat it in a day. I felt a little gypped, like there should have been more (and there really should have, I really think we only got half of what the game would have been). I don't care what runin says, it's even shorter than most 16 bit rpgs, barring falcom rpgs which are almost always short.

Of the 3 main 16 bit era consoles, snes and pcengine are the only ones that got more than just a handful of rpgs. So it's only fair to compare snes/sfc and pce for rpg length. By far, snes rpgs were a lot longer. This may be due to the fact that quite of few of the highly acclaimed pce rpgs were made by falcom. Whatever the case is games like Final Fantasy 2 and 3, Chrono Trigger, Dragon Quest 3, 5 and 6, Lufia 1 and 2, the Romancing Sagas (heck most of square's rpgs), Earthbound, Tales of Phantasia, Star Ocean, and many others were roughly 2x+ the length of Lunar with 2x+ more content. Granted some of these game I mentioned were late releases in the 16-bit era, however there are many more that are within the time frame of the lunars. There certainly are short snes/sfc and pce rpgs and pce certainly has some fairly long ones. The main point of said comparison was to give my argument that Lunar was too short some weight. Lunar 2 for Sega cd was a good bit longer, and probably about the length the first Lunar should have been.

I can only imagine 3 main reasons why people prefer the original more:

1. They changed it up quite a bit. Human beings are stubborn, we like the status quo and tend to resist or are reluctant to accept change. It's understandable if the change is not in a good direction, but in the case of Lunar SSS it wasn't really in any direction, good or bad. People might resent the fact that many of the changes seemed unnecessary (and in fact many were).

2. Nostalgia. Most of the people who played both versions of Lunar SSS have probably played the sega cd version first, and probably closer to when it first came out (i am one such person). Typically we like or value the original more for nostalgic feelings.

3. The sega cd is an underdog. Psx had many rpgs, and many good ones. Lunar certainly doesn't stand out much above many of the excellent psx rpgs, and might get quickly written off. Sega cd on the other hand had a small handful of AAA titles, and even fewer rpgs altogether. Lunar for the Sega CD was a platform defining game. If you get a sega cd or when you first get one, Lunar SSS is one of the titles that is always highly recommended and usually on most peoples to buy list. Had lunar never existed for psx it probably wouldn't have had much impact. Had it never had a sega cd release, it would have been a major blow to the system. Also, many people might be biased altogether against sony and the psx.

So what do you guys think? Also, if anyone can provide any insight to the Japan only Saturn release for comparison I am all ears. Also contrary to popular belief the gba port never existed.  [-(

nectarsis

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2009, 04:52:01 PM »
Dragon Quest 3=NES not SNES :P

As for "short" Falcom rpg's...Try the first Legend of Xanadu PCE..hardly a short game.
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Black Tiger

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2009, 05:08:03 PM »
It's true, the PSX version does suck, the Saturns versions are much better. :wink: I like the Sega-CD Silver Star (there's no Story) for what it is, but it's not so great as a 16-bit RPG and it is definitely unfinished. Mega Fan magazine coverage shows many last minute changes and it looked like they had planned something much more epic. I don't think that even the Saturn versions lived up to what the developer had originally aspired for.

Zeon: How many PCE RPGs have you played? Why do you think that SNES RPG's are longer? It makes sense that since they recycle assets throughout the entire game that it takes less work to pad a cart than it does to maintain CD quality content. Comparing game length between SNES RPGs and CD RPGs is one thing, but I don't know what you consider "content", since you're favoring SNES. Super Mario Bros has lots of levels but very little content. Almost all SNES RPGs are number-crunching recycle-fests that give you more and more text as you progress, instead of more and more original art, music, voice, cinemas, etc. It's kinda like playing with a calculator versus playing with real toys.

Still, at least FFIII/VI, Crono Trigger and Earthbound are super short and I used to do laps in a day to a day and a half. Try to clear Tengai Makyou II, Kabuki Den, Neo Metal Fantasy or Cosmic Fantasy 3 in a day or so.

Lunar EB isn't just "a good bit longer", it's ridiculously long. Some people think it's too long for it's own good, yet it still maintains such a high level of real-actual content right through to the end and beyond.


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Also, if anyone can provide any insight to the Japan only Saturn release for comparison I am all ears.

There are two Saturn Lunar SSS's. The regular version has much better looking, more vibrant battle bgs, shorter loads, better/more special effects, instant saving, a single disc and other things I can't think of over the downgraded PSX port. Pretty much the same deal with Grandia, except the 3D bgs also took a major hit in quality. Lunar SSS Complete is the second Saturn version which added some extra items, bromides, possibly small areas and mpeg support for the cinemas which became more or less full screen. The PSX version is a port of Lunar SSSC.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 05:34:38 PM by Black Tiger »
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nodtveidt

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2009, 05:30:59 PM »
First of all, the Sega CD version was not called "The Silver Star Story", it was called "The Silver Star". The PSX version is lacking in many ways in the gameplay department...almost all of the magic spells were removed, the gameplay was horribly unbalanced (having to heal after every battle gets old very quickly), and the repeated samples were f*ckING ANNOYING! Nash saying "Check this out!" for every spell (except one where he goes "Special delivery!") was irritating! Also, the game used boss level scaling which is ALWAYS a bad game design decision. The SSS story was a little more interesting in places but it was hard to get into the characters after knowing them so well in the original. Plus, where was super-demon-Ghaleon at the end of SSS? How dull that he's dead for good once you finish him off. When Alex gets his weapon to become a Dragonmaster, the voice sequence in that part is just totally out-of-place...it completely ruined the event. Also, Alex is SUPPOSED to learn powerful magics...a Dragonmaster is supposed to be not only a great warrior but also a great spellcaster...both are required to protect the goddess. The fact that they made him little more than a stupid barbarian was ultimately what I could never overlook. Turning Kyle into a crossdresser was also a slap in the face...he's supposed to be portrayed as a true man among men, not a wuss who dresses in drag and sleeps off his hangovers in a jail cell.

I loved the soundtrack in the original...in particular, the thundering toms of the boss tracks are so memorable. The soundtrack in SSS was totally lame, especially the hideous crap in the town where everyone speaks in song (Lyton, was it?). And WHY DID THEY TAKE AWAY ALEX'S HARP?! What the f*ck?? Yeah I know it wasn't really a harp, it was a lyre, but still...stupid move.

All in all, SSS falls very, very short of the original.

Black Tiger

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2009, 05:37:22 PM »
Wow, sounds like Working Designs is responsible for some of the U.S. PSX version's shortcomings. :-k
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Zeon

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2009, 06:16:51 PM »
You guys bring up some very interesting points. Indeed the Sega Cd version was simply Silver Star, In my fervor of making this post I didn't take the time to make sure of it's title, and it's been years since I have played it. Also to get technical the psx version was (which you noted was the port of the Saturn version of the same name) Silver Star Complete, something that always irked me a bit. I will also say I didn't beat the Psx version completely, but I was damn close. I never got to play either Saturn port, but as you said, my impressions were that is was the better out of the two remakes. Yeah the battle voices got old, but I tune va out in general, so it didn't bother me too much. As far as balance I felt the psx version was a lot better, every boss battle kept me on my toes, and I was only barely able to win when I did. In the sega cd version I breezed through all the bosses like nothing. without any grinding whatsoever except possibly near the beginning. I couldn't remember about the magic thing. I just found it odd how Alex "learned" his magic in the original, which may have been partly to blame on WDs localization. Alex instrument change was something that I too found odd, but quickly overlooked it. At first I did type that lunar 2 was a lot longer, but seeing as I didn't beat it completely, I didn't want to make such a claim without myself knowing for sure.

As far as cart vs cd, it was the only comparison you could make was snes and pce-cd. Genesis with sega cd didn't have near as many rpgs as the other 2 and pce hucard rpgs were few and far between. It makes sense that tiles and a lot of stuff is recycled in cart games due to memory limitations, and I don't like making this comparison, but there really isn't a more viable comparison to be made. When I speak of content I generally mean things relating to gameplay, not art, music, etc.

Yes many snes rpgs could have been beaten quickly but there was so much side content (quests, secrets, hidden stuff) that you could skip. Chrono Trigger was a game were you could literally skip half of it and beat it. Super Mario RPG was another that changed things up quite a bit throughout the game. 100%ing a snes rpg takes a lot longer than 100%ing a lot of pce games. This may be due to grinding or whatever, all I know is there seems like there is more to do than pce rpgs. Admittedly I have played more snes rpgs than pce simply due to the language barrier. From what I have played they are very enjoyable but in general seem shorter. Also, out of curiosity, how many of you can read Japanese in a fluent manner? I don't care what anyone says, if you don't have a fair understanding of the language, the game is going to seem longer and take longer to beat. Besides, when you only half understand what is being said, you are missing a lot of the content.

ParanoiaDragon

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2009, 08:27:20 PM »
The PSX versions of Lunar 1 & 2, are what made the Lunar series 1 of the 3 top RPG series of all time for me, with Ys, & Suikoden.  Lunar's 1 & 2, to me, stand out with Suikoden 1 & 2 on the PSX as the best RPG's of the system.  I do have the Sega CD version of Lunar 1, but I haven't played thru it, I didn't even have a Sega CD until years after getting a PSX, so, maybe I'm biased towards the PSX/Saturn versions.  All I can say is, I love it, & I'm thrilled that Xseed has picked up the rights to the new version of Lunar 1 in the US, hopefully that will lead to Lunar 2, & FINALLY Lunar 3!  Now, if someone would just bring over Ys 1 & 2 Chronicles & Ys 7 over to the US, I'd be a happy camper.  Come to think of it, we need a really good Lufia game.  I loved the 1st 2, the 3rd one I have yet to beat, & the 4th one I haven't played much at all, those 2 just didn't strike me for whatever reason :-k

SuperDeadite

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2009, 11:34:54 PM »
The SCD versions have original enemy sprites for every different area.   :clap:  The remakes pallete swap them.   ](*,)
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nodtveidt

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2009, 11:41:29 PM »
How about companies stop making stupid sequels and start doing things original again?

Black Tiger

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2009, 07:00:15 AM »
As far as cart vs cd, it was the only comparison you could make was snes and pce-cd. Genesis with sega cd didn't have near as many rpgs as the other 2 and pce hucard rpgs were few and far between. It makes sense that tiles and a lot of stuff is recycled in cart games due to memory limitations, and I don't like making this comparison, but there really isn't a more viable comparison to be made. When I speak of content I generally mean things relating to gameplay, not art, music, etc.

Gameplay-wise, PCE RPGs are on average from what I've played, at least as long. Cart games artificially lengthen play-through times with dragged out, usually unskippable "cinematics", which consist of pages and pages of speech text and/or watching an in-game background move for a while. Square SNES RPGs are pretty bad offenders.


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Yes many snes rpgs could have been beaten quickly but there was so much side content (quests, secrets, hidden stuff) that you could skip. Chrono Trigger was a game were you could literally skip half of it and beat it. Super Mario RPG was another that changed things up quite a bit throughout the game.

Again, being able to walk to the side of a path and enter an extra cave that looks like the rest in the game and fight the same enemies possibly recolored, often without any text speech often just to find an extra item to equip isn't a breakthrough in gameplay, but it isn't unique to SNES RPGs either. Stuff like FFIII/VI's collecting Lores, Rages, etc isn't real meaningful content, it's more of a waste of time. Even fully clearing Chrono Trigger, while maximizing the time loot, it is an extremely short RPG and I got bored with it very fast. I really liked it, but its retard "difficulty" and non-length are what led me to go back to lapping other RPGs again sooner than usual.  I'm curious what you mean by SMRPG "changing things up". It's one of the worst SNES RPGs as far as content and I felt ripped off after a few days of playing it.


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100%ing a snes rpg takes a lot longer than 100%ing a lot of pce games. This may be due to grinding or whatever, all I know is there seems like there is more to do than pce rpgs. Admittedly I have played more snes rpgs than pce simply due to the language barrier. From what I have played they are very enjoyable but in general seem shorter. Also, out of curiosity, how many of you can read Japanese in a fluent manner? I don't care what anyone says, if you don't have a fair understanding of the language, the game is going to seem longer and take longer to beat. Besides, when you only half understand what is being said, you are missing a lot of the content.

When you say "100%ing" while comparing SNES RPGs to PCE games, do you mean non-RPG PCE games? Which PCE RPGs have you played through? Which did you find short? You mentioned grinding as well, do you think that Double Dungeons is a long, content packed RPG?

Cart RPGs are limited story-wise. Reading speech text with a bunch of static player sprites standing around or sometimes walking isn't like reading a novel where you are immersed in an all descriptive world. What made cart RPGs more interesting and memorable was the lack of detail of people and places and what was really happening (two in-game sprites bump each other = a complex duel to the death). It leaves so much to the imagination that you fill in the gaps literally with your imagination. Cinematic Japanese CD RPGs are so packed with aesthetic content, that you often get a much clearer idea of what is happening than english cart RPGs. However much you don't understand exactly as it was meant to be interpreted, is still filled in by your imagination like playing cart RPGs.

I loved FFII/IV in english. I liked how the sprites acted out everything while the text boxed flipped by. But I was blown away the first time I played Kabukiden. It had the same style sprites, but they did a better job acting everything out while the text flips by. Except the text is perfectly synced to actual voice acting, which is synced to animated mouths of large character portraits and there are often extra little animations thrown in. The battle cinematics are also done like SNES FF's, except that there are extra animations, the characters are more detailed and there's voice acting. This is all independant of the real cinemas of the game (Which are unbelievable). And if you like an RPGs "changing things up", you won't believe the things that happen and everything you get to do.

I love the actual gameplay of RPGs. The benefits of CD make RPGs more enjoyable, but even english cart games aren't deep stories with the formality of gameplay. So it's no loss playing imports, carts or CDs. But the difference between the two is kinda like the difference between 8-bit and 16-bit games.
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Zeon

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2009, 11:17:40 AM »
Black Tiger, I guess as far as length goes, it all boils down to how you measure the content and length of a game. Though not groundbreaking, going though dungeons, battles, finding items, characters, places, required or otherwise, is the very bread and butter of the gameplay of an rpg.

Besides, not all of such extra content is cut and dry, go from a to b and get the hidden thing. Many times it is broken up with clever dialog, riddles, puzzles, and/or events. You oversimplify it far to much. Besides I don't care for breakthroughs necessarily, just content that is fun.

Super Mario Rpg broke up the gameplay at several points in various subtle ways. The dialog for one was often simple but humorous. Seeing Mario reenact events was priceless. The things such as the the extra timed button presses in battles for more/less damage, the Yoshi racing, mode 7 mine cart ride, and that race up hill, amongst many other things, while very simple, provided a nice change of pace than the more serious rpgs. The great thing about Mario Rpg is it is just as much for rpg lovers as it is for everyone. Anyone can pick it up and play. Even though like most cart rpgs where a lot of graphics are reused, Mario rpg is one of the ones where you can barely tell as you play it is so well done.

Every dungeon and place, even those that use the same set of graphics, are done in such a way that you can't really tell much was reused as far as dungeon layout goes while you are playing. I can remember quite a few places in even Lunar SS where the room layouts were reused and stood out.(though by far it isn't as much as most cart rpgs). The people that don't enjoy Mario Rpg are usually the ones that expect too much from it, or something different than what it is. Maybe if it didn't have "RPG" in the title :P.

Your definition of "meaningful content" to me seems like meaningless extras like fmv and more sprite art, backgrounds, etc. Yes they are nice, and they can help make a mediocre rpg into an excellent one (and they can make an otherwise excellent rpg into a really crappy experience); however they are far from needed to make good content.

Admittedly I have played a small handful of pce rpgs, namely the us released ones. Though there are many more than just the falcom rpgs, for some reason I always associate pce rpgs with falcom, of which I have played some of there rpgs on other consoles/computers. Falcom rpgs are almost always very short. I disagree with being able to get anything about what's going on with the language barrier. Maybe if you partly understand what is being said, but for me I have always been highly annoyed when I don't know what the hell is happening...at all. No the fmvs don't help, in fact they only serve to confuse, and annoy me more. Having to refer to guides to get through a game is no way to play, it ruins the experience for me completely. Especially when hours are wasted trying to find that one last damn townsperson/place/thing you are supposed to talk to/examine to initiate an event, that is COMPLETELY unobvious when you can't understand Japanese. I spent 3+ hours slowly figuring out what to do in the first town in Magicoal (a game I thought would be obvious and easy enough to figure out). I finally hit a road block, and no matter who I talked to, what I examined, what I did, I could not figure it out. I turned it off highly frustrated, and have not played it since. Though stories of jrpgs are far from novel quality, when crap like that arises from the language barrier (and it happens A LOT) I don't see how anyone can find the game enjoyable, especially when they are turned based battle fest. Besides it's the characters that often make a jrpg, not the story.

I don't really count fmv as something that lengthens the game or gives much more meaningful content, in fact most of the time, I just skip fmvs if possible, especially in Jrpgs that are not translated. (I actually kinda hated fmv heavy rpgs and still do, well the copious use of fmv that is). Honestly when looking at the length of a game I personally don't count fmvs, unless they have vital info, which many times they don't (though admittedly, many times they do.) Honestly I'd rather it happen as it does in most cart rpgs than watch a short fmv clip. It leaves far more to interpretation. I like using my imagination thank you very much, especially when it comes to characters voices. Cd rpgs with their fancy cinematics and whatnot destroy almost any possible use of imagination when they use such things in events.

I think the problem here is you tend to value the more artsy part of games ie the aesthetics, and presentation, while i value more the characters, gameplay and clever dialog/events. I love what they do with limited resources (carts). Early cd rpgs, are often just cart games with lots of fmv and redbook audio. In fact if you took out the redbook audio (and replaced it with chip audio) and fmv and left everything else intact, many 16-bit era cd rpgs could have easily fit on some of the bigger sized carts of the time. Considering that at the time, when cds allowed for "virtually unlimited space to make a game" what we often got really wasn't that impressive. You say text heaviness artificially increased the length of cart games, I say fmvs artificially increased the length of cd games (though perhaps, not as much), and the redbook audio artificially increased the content. (Chip music > redbook audio any day of the week). I speak for 16-bit rpg games in general not just snes vs pce.

On a side note, pce is an excellent system and my all time favorite, however as far as rpgs go I can only really speak for the tg16, as I cannot play pce rpgs. Perhaps I should not have made my snes vs pce comparison, however the fact still stands lunar is far shorter than most rpgs of the time, which was really the only reason I even brought up the whole comparison.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 11:29:12 AM by Zeon »

Joe Redifer

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2009, 02:06:09 PM »
The best way to lengthen an RPG is to make the characters walk more slowly.

Black Tiger

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2009, 02:40:49 PM »
Black Tiger, I guess as far as length goes, it all boils down to how you measure the content and length of a game. Though not groundbreaking, going though dungeons, battles, finding items, characters, places, required or otherwise, is the very bread and butter of the gameplay of an rpg.

That's what thought, you'll find just as much in the average PCE RPG.


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Besides, not all of such extra content is cut and dry, go from a to b and get the hidden thing. Many times it is broken up with clever dialog, riddles, puzzles, and/or events. You oversimplify it far to much. Besides I don't care for breakthroughs necessarily, just content that is fun.

Again, japanese developers put the same kinda stuff into both carts and CDs. CD RPGs just have extra stuff as well.


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Super Mario Rpg broke up the gameplay at several points in various subtle ways. The dialog for one was often simple but humorous. Seeing Mario reenact events was priceless. The things such as the the extra timed button presses in battles for more/less damage, the Yoshi racing, mode 7 mine cart ride, and that race up hill, amongst many other things, while very simple, provided a nice change of pace than the more serious rpgs. The great thing about Mario Rpg is it is just as much for rpg lovers as it is for everyone. Anyone can pick it up and play. Even though like most cart rpgs where a lot of graphics are reused, Mario rpg is one of the ones where you can barely tell as you play it is so well done.

Sounds like you'd love Kabukiden and Gullver Boy (if they were english I guess...).


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Every dungeon and place, even those that use the same set of graphics, are done in such a way that you can't really tell much was reused as far as dungeon layout goes while you are playing. I can remember quite a few places in even Lunar SS where the room layouts were reused and stood out.(though by far it isn't as much as most cart rpgs). The people that don't enjoy Mario Rpg are usually the ones that expect too much from it, or something different than what it is. Maybe if it didn't have "RPG" in the title :P.

The same could be said of Lunar SS. :wink:



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Your definition of "meaningful content" to me seems like meaningless extras like fmv and more sprite art, backgrounds, etc. Yes they are nice, and they can help make a mediocre rpg into an excellent one (and they can make an otherwise excellent rpg into a really crappy experience); however they are far from needed to make good content.

Are there some RPGs you know of that were worse off from enhanced visuals, music, cinemas, etc?


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Admittedly I have played a small handful of pce rpgs, namely the us released ones. Though there are many more than just the falcom rpgs, for some reason I always associate pce rpgs with falcom, of which I have played some of there rpgs on other consoles/computers. Falcom rpgs are almost always very short.

I'm not sure why you've mentioned Falcom RPGs so much. The only ones I can think of are Dragon Slayer/LOH 1 & 2. Otherwise Falcom pretty much only makes questy hybrid adventure games.


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I disagree with being able to get anything about what's going on with the language barrier. Maybe if you partly understand what is being said, but for me I have always been highly annoyed when I don't know what the hell is happening...at all. No the fmvs don't help, in fact they only serve to confuse, and annoy me more. Having to refer to guides to get through a game is no way to play, it ruins the experience for me completely. Especially when hours are wasted trying to find that one last damn townsperson/place/thing you are supposed to talk to/examine to initiate an event, that is COMPLETELY unobvious when you can't understand Japanese. I spent 3+ hours slowly figuring out what to do in the first town in Magicoal (a game I thought would be obvious and easy enough to figure out). I finally hit a road block, and no matter who I talked to, what I examined, what I did, I could not figure it out. I turned it off highly frustrated, and have not played it since. Though stories of jrpgs are far from novel quality, when crap like that arises from the language barrier (and it happens A LOT) I don't see how anyone can find the game enjoyable, especially when they are turned based battle fest. Besides it's the characters that often make a jrpg, not the story.

I guess that cinemas and/or voice aren't for you. Most people seem to require guides to play any english questy (or non-questy) game, which is why there are strategy guides for absolutely everything and an online faq/guide for every english cart RPG ever made. I myself have run into the problems you described, only in english cart RPGs.


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I don't really count fmv as something that lengthens the game or gives much more meaningful content, in fact most of the time, I just skip fmvs if possible, especially in Jrpgs that are not translated. (I actually kinda hated fmv heavy rpgs and still do, well the copious use of fmv that is). Honestly when looking at the length of a game I personally don't count fmvs, unless they have vital info, which many times they don't (though admittedly, many times they do.) Honestly I'd rather it happen as it does in most cart rpgs than watch a short fmv clip. It leaves far more to interpretation. I like using my imagination thank you very much, especially when it comes to characters voices. Cd rpgs with their fancy cinematics and whatnot destroy almost any possible use of imagination when they use such things in events.

Like I said before, CD JRPGs still gave me plenty to imagine about and you're tastes are in the minority when it comes to RPG fans. But from what you say, you should hate Lunar PSX much more than Lunar Sega-CD.


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I think the problem here is you tend to value the more artsy part of games ie the aesthetics, and presentation, while i value more the characters, gameplay and clever dialog/events. I love what they do with limited resources (carts). Early cd rpgs, are often just cart games with lots of fmv and redbook audio. In fact if you took out the redbook audio (and replaced it with chip audio) and fmv and left everything else intact, many 16-bit era cd rpgs could have easily fit on some of the bigger sized carts of the time. Considering that at the time, when cds allowed for "virtually unlimited space to make a game" what we often got really wasn't that impressive. You say text heaviness artificially increased the length of cart games, I say fmvs artificially increased the length of cd games (though perhaps, not as much), and the redbook audio artificially increased the content. (Chip music > redbook audio any day of the week). I speak for 16-bit rpg games in general not just snes vs pce.

As I've been saying, CD RPGs have everything cart games do. Take any cart RPG you love and add to it, that's all that they are. But you still get more character development and clever dialogue/events from CD RPGs. There must be a line though, that RPGs have to balance around for you to enjoy them, since you say that you like having more left to the imagination, but at the same time value characters and clever dialogue/events.

There also has to be a point, where non-gameplay content comes into play as well, otherwise you might as well stick with 8-bit RPGs. What if an RPG was made entirely of green and gray squares like the classic Bomberman Battle map, with all the characters and enemies as just recolored Bombermen? At some point variety must matter, but just the same there shouldnèt be a point that just happens to fall into SNES RPG territory where there is too much of a good thing.

Today people complain more about games being too long. Sure CD RPGs could've been 1000 hours long, but it would be like watching a 12 hour movie and would deter players from buying new games. You said so yourself that CD RPGs could fit on carts without the extras... because they're just like cart RPGs... only packed with enhancements. But you're unique for disliking enhanced games.

I'm not sure how CD audio pads the content, since you said that you don't consider it real content.


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On a side note, pce is an excellent system and my all time favorite, however as far as rpgs go I can only really speak for the tg16, as I cannot play pce rpgs. Perhaps I should not have made my snes vs pce comparison, however the fact still stands lunar is far shorter than most rpgs of the time, which was really the only reason I even brought up the whole comparison.

It's true, Lunar can be quickly beaten, but that doesn't mean that it is a bad game.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 02:48:33 PM by Black Tiger »
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Zeon

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2009, 03:57:55 PM »
I am by no means an expert on pce rpgs, I only have what I have observed first hand via a small handful of games. As I said I probably should not have made such a comparison, as it was made with my limited experience of pce rpgs. There are probably many long pce rpgs, but from what I have seen and heard I am led to believe this is not the case, whether or not it is true.

I have nothing against cd games at all, there are many that I love the sega cd version of Lunar being no exception. The only trend I never really cared for was fmv. Voice acting can go either way, but if it was taken out I wouldn't be upset or miss it. In fact I read too fast, and am to impatient to wait for the va to catch up, so I end up skipping it anyways, only to hear a jumbled mess of the first syllable of every sentence mashed together. Voices in battle that repeat often get old very fast, so if I can turn them off I do. To clarify I do not prefer the psx or saturn version of Lunar, they both have things that I like and dislike over the other. To me there is no clear cut "winner".

Speaking of people referring to guides for English games, this is mainly due to laziness, and/or the obsession of doing everything and seeing everything that is possible in the game. If you can read and understand the language the game is portrayed in there is never a need for a guide. I cannot think of a single jrpg in english that had me completely stumped for more than 10 minutes at a time if even that, unless I take a month+ break during the course of playing the game, or the game glitched and prevented me from actually moving forward (yes this has actually happened to me). I don't care how well the VA or FMVs are portrayed you're not going to pick up on 90% of what is going on other than the main gist of things. Besides there has never been a rpg in english that I wasted 3+ hours on and had me turn the game off in frustration over something that would have been blindingly simple to figure out could I read the language.

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Are there some RPGs you know of that were worse off from enhanced visuals, music, cinemas, etc?

Hell yes, any game with atrocious VA (though some games have perfectly good VA) that cannot be turned off or in some cases even skipped. This has almost killed my will to go on in many cd rpgs many times. Also unskippable fmvs are highly annoying especially if you have seen them before (ie playing the game or that part again). This was a gripe of many that is only in very recent times dieing out, not everyone cares to be forced to sit through fmvs, tutorials, etc. People want fmvs and voices, fine, but for the sake of many's ears and patience put in an option to skip/turn it off. Besides IMO chip music in many cases sounds better, though not always.

I agree that there needs to be a balance between gameplay elements and non gameplay elements. I just don't agree with you what this balance is. Again, I never said sega cd lunar was a bad game by any means, I just think it could have been so much more. At the same time, I think a lot of the hate towards the psx version is unwarranted.

Tom

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Re: Sega CD Lunar SSS vs PSX Lunar SSS
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2009, 05:45:55 PM »
Wait... people actually like Super Mario RPG? My bro bought that game BITD and I had a chance to beat it. Overall, it's kinda boring. That's one RPG that I would *not* play over again.