Author Topic: CD-R's  (Read 1500 times)

Keranu

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CD-R's
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2005, 10:18:13 AM »
NEC Avenue, if you can give your source of the 2X CD drive in the Duo, then I could possibly agree with you, but for now I think a 1X CD drive in the Duo ultimately makes the most sense. Sorry :( .
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

NEC Avenue

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« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2005, 12:53:34 PM »
Quote
This memory upgrade does not make it a 2x drive.


Nobody said it did. The point is the more buffer you have to fill the longer it takes. A 2x CDROM can fill a buffer in half the time as a 1x CDROM.

nodtveidt

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CD-R's
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2005, 01:10:27 PM »
I think there's probably only one way to ultimately test to see whether or not the Duo has a 2x drive in it, and that's to run the Duo (region-mod of course) with an arcade card, running a heavy memory game, and then running the exact same game on an original setup with the arcade card pro and testing the time differences. The usage of the arcade card should bring both drives to their max spin, which is the only time you can accurately test their speeds. Obviously this test wouldn't apply to the Duo-R or Duo-RX, because we're not comparing those...we're talking the US models here. Who knows...they might have actually put a 2x drive into the RX, since it was designed to run ACD games...and there, a 2x drive WOULD help a whole lot....a 4x drive moreso...

Regardless though...doing a speed test on normal 64k or 256k games isn't going to do much, since there's so little data to be transferred. A 2x cdrom has 2 or 3 seconds spinup time before it reaches max spin, and by that time, most all the data's going to be loaded anyways...it would take approximately 3 seconds to fill the entire 256k, and then we can be generous and say we're also going to fill the 64k ADPCM buffer...let's assume we're loading an entire 256k overlay...3 seconds, it's loaded, then reseek to the overlay with the ADPCM data...we're already at max spin, so our transfer rate is 300k/s...it should take less than .2 seconds to load that 64k buffer once the laser is in the right position. Now let's look at the same test in a 1x drive...max spin is achieved in under a second, our data rate is halved, so it's only 150k/s. But wait a second here...we've only got to load 256kb, so we're probably going to load 150kb in the first two seconds, then fill the rest of the buffer in the next second...max three seconds. Then the 64k ADPCM buffer fill...still at max spin now, reseek and load, we're looking at less than .7 seconds. Look mah...our fourth grade math course has probably taught us that we've saved a whole .5 seconds...at best. :D This whole test, of course, is not taking into account the speed of the read head, which is instrumental in changing tracks and also affects the seek speed on the same track. We already know that the Duo's CDROM drive has a faster read head...as I stated before, you can tell this from listening to both drives in action...the system 2 drive is quite the slow one, but the Duo's read head zip back and forth pretty fast. On games with heavy track seeking (such as CF2), this makes quite a difference in load times. But the fact that the read head is that much faster will indeed account for the load speed difference...even if the Duo does indeed have a 1x drive. :D

NEC Avenue

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« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2005, 01:23:19 PM »
The best way to test it is to look at how fast the disc spins. :)

You also have to keep in mind that we're not just talking about initial load times since games are constantly loading when you change levels etc.

nodtveidt

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« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2005, 01:31:35 PM »
Yeah...REAL conclusive. :roll:  :lol: How about just coughing up the proof, eh?

nodtveidt

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« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2005, 01:37:26 PM »
Quote from: "NEC Avenue"
You also have to keep in mind that we're not just talking about initial load times since games are constantly loading when you change levels etc.

Depends on the method they use to load the new data. Some games precache everything in huge overlays to reduce the frequency of future loads and some use dynamic loading of data segments which keeps load times down but more frequent. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head but I believe more games use method #2...which further narrows the speed difference and makes your argument even less fathomable. :D (Of course, this more frequent loading of data results in more reseeks...and again, look at the speed of the read heads for both drives...)

For Mysterious Song, we use method #1, since there's a lot of data to be loaded and having to dynamically load data between battles or whatnot is going to be a pain in the tail no matter what system you play it on. But for Neutopia III, we're using method #2 since the precache method isn't very effective for larger games.

NEC Avenue

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« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2005, 02:22:38 PM »
Quote
I can't think of any examples off the top of my head but I believe more games use method #2...which further narrows the speed difference and makes your argument even less fathomable.


The thing is most games use red book audio so you cannot be constantly accessing the disc. You have to load big chunks of data.

nodtveidt

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« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2005, 04:22:52 PM »
Quote from: "NEC Avenue"
Quote
I can't think of any examples off the top of my head but I believe more games use method #2...which further narrows the speed difference and makes your argument even less fathomable.


The thing is most games use red book audio so you cannot be constantly accessing the disc. You have to load big chunks of data.

You missed the point...ah well fsckit, you're just going to keep arguing this anyways. :roll: I'm still waiting on the evidence...

I never said ANYTHING about constantly accessing the disc. Frankly, I bore of this discussion since you don't have the foggiest clue as to what I'm talking about...ever...and you don't read what I say. Ever. :roll:

NEC Avenue

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« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2005, 04:49:57 PM »
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I'm still waiting on the evidence...


What are you talking about? As of right now nobody has evidence for or against 2x CD in DUO. What's up with all the drama anyway? :roll:

nodtveidt

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« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2005, 05:07:59 PM »
Quote from: "NEC Avenue"
What are you talking about? As of right now nobody has evidence for or against 2x CD in DUO. What's up with all the drama anyway? :roll:

You told me I was wrong on a subject I am pretty knowledgable about...time to put up or shut up. And all of a sudden you say nobody has any evidence? I thought YOU did? That's what we're all waiting for...

Keranu

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« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2005, 05:50:58 PM »
Hahaha, this will never end.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

nodtveidt

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CD-R's
« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2005, 05:52:26 PM »
Seems to be a lot of fights going on lately, and for once, I'm not starting...most of them. :D

twor2005

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CD-R's
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2005, 09:33:32 PM »
I looked through a lot of old magazines but didn't find anything that tells the speed of the drive. And yet it seems like read it was double somewhere- because this was one reason I was considering a Duo even though I already had a TGCD. All I found was an ambiguous reference in Gamepro to slightly faster load times. One thing I haven't checked is Turboplay and the dedicated magazines on steve's site.

NEC Avenue

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« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2005, 05:28:38 AM »
Quote from: "nodtveidt"
Quote from: "NEC Avenue"
What are you talking about? As of right now nobody has evidence for or against 2x CD in DUO. What's up with all the drama anyway? :roll:

You told me I was wrong on a subject I am pretty knowledgable about...time to put up or shut up. And all of a sudden you say nobody has any evidence? I thought YOU did? That's what we're all waiting for...


The only evidence you have is a bunch of websites that are parroting the same information..doesnt' make it correct. The evidence that I've shown actually supports my claims like the SCSI adapter announcement. The DUO came out before the adapter anouncment. Now I ask you why the adapter allows you to use your DUO as a 2x CD drive if it wasn't already 2x? Doesn't make any sense at all. No offense, but it seems you are not that familiar with what kind of drive is used in the DUO otherwise you would know it's 2x. :wink:

nodtveidt

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CD-R's
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2005, 05:37:27 AM »
Are you gonna keep going, or are you actually gonna give us the facts rather than speculation? You're getting pretty damn annoying. And I've already explained about six times why a 2x drive would be impractical and so have others. But I guess you missed all that, didn't you...relying on one advertisement, a very inconclusive "but discs look like they spin faster" argument, and a product which was never released, officially because drives were cheaper then...or could it be that it wasn't released because the hardware didn't live up to the claims they made? Like all the OTHER claims they made and never went through with?