I Purchased Sapphire!

[GUTS]

Personally I wouldn't buy it just because I can't stand the thought of spending good money on a fake something.  If I'm gonna lay out some cash, I only want real authentic shit.

[MotherGunner]

The only reason why it can be a "second run", is because no company would press just one game to make a lot of money.  Why stop there?  How come we don't see more Dracula X, or Bonk 3 CD copies?

If they really wanted to make a profit we'd be seeing more titles.  And why go through all the trouble to put out a game that is over a decade old?  Why only PC Engine?  Why not high quality xbox and ps2 games?


It doesn't make sense to just dismiss this as a bootleg.  I haven't seen too many bootleggers that would go through all that trouble.

Also these started to pop up shortly after the release of the original game.  So the story of Hudson outsourcing the production of more copies is certainly possible.

My two cents.

[Michael Helgeson]

glad a couple of people agreed with that theory of mine.Since no one here has tried to contact Care4 Data,to ask for production cost and what not,who knows.Im not going to bother,its not my real worry.I worry about getting more laserdisc these days.

[Emerald Rocker]

It makes sense to be a bootleg because it's worth a lot of money per copy sold -- the profit margin is way higher than selling counterfeit GTA3 or Dragon Quest 8, and it's harder to detect because there are fewer originals in the market.  The timing is also interesting: they appeared right after warehouses emptied out their PCE Arcade Card Pro/Duo stock --- so when these bootlegs were made (2001-ish), demand for Sapphire was at its HIGHEST ever.  It was brilliant timing, really.

At the time these were made, it was much easier and more profitable to make counterfeit Sapphire than it was to make counterfeit PS2 or Xbox games.

They're fakes -- live with it.  I'm not saying that in any ethical sense: if you're fine with the idea of buying forgeries, be my guest.  But trying to rationalize them as being anything other than bootlegs is self-delusion.

[GUTS]

I agree with the rocker, I don't get how anybody can not see these are fakes.  Big companies like Hudson don't give a shit about selling a few hundred copies of some old PC Engine game, the profit they would make on that is miniscule and not worth their time in any way.  The ONLY time you EVER see reprints of games is in the tens of thousands like greatest hits games or the extremely RARE reprint of a game for a current console (like Suikoden III for example).

[Michael Helgeson]

Not saying its real,but Im not saying its a fake either,as Care4Data is a huge pressing company in the world,with alot of pressing plants.It isnt normal for large pressing plants like this to do short orders.And for all the naysaying,have you tried to contact Care4Data,or Hudson to ask if they requested Care4Data to make a pressing of the game?Untill you do,and present these facts here or wherever,you cant truely say they are fake.

Your opinion is not a fact,its your opinion.I gave you alot of information about disc pressing,along with Care4Datas contact info for many of their plants.Also,game press runs in Japan are much smaller then in the US,as they are space restricted,and generally try to only make what they are sure to sell,so it is actually very realistic to think that Hudson would order another small print run for the game,as the first was infact very small.Also,if the pressing plant they used to use was no longer pressing/mastering disc,making knickle stampers,and what not,then they would indeed have to use another plant.The booklet arguement is useless,because if it is by chance a second run done a couple years later,and of corse pressed by a different company,then odds are the paperwork could have been done at that press plant,or new printing equipment,from digital archived scans of the booklet info.

So the printing will look different.They will not be taken off the original press plates,as those would have been disposed of by Hudson long before.Game companies usually archive in data format,as any other method is subject to breakdown faster.Pressing plates do break down over time,as they wear out.They are not going to keep them.With any second pressing of anything,you are going to notice differences between presses.This is natural.Its really funny I am defending a pressing of  agame I dont even like,but crap,you guys ar enot providing facts,or really investigating enough.All your doing is spouting off its fake fake fake.Where are your facts?
O yea,I had 2 copies of Graduation 2 for Pc Engine.There was color differences between the 2 on the covers.The mint marks had the exact number count on the disc,but were vary different numbers,showing drasticly different time line between the 2 prints.

I cant see or imagine a huge pressing firm like Care4Data doing a small run bootleg order.It i spossible,but very unlikly overall.They would make no money off of it,as it cost manpower hours to press compact disc.Even injection molding requires a 24 hour man crew.They are not going to do this for a 1000 press run.It would have to be a larger order.It is not as cheap to press a data/music mix disc compared to a normal music cd also.
It requires more work,more testing and confirming,and quality checks,as data for programs is not as forgiving for, lets say a game system,compared to a music track can be on any cd player.They would have to do a quality check every few hundred disc to make sure the stamper is still holding up.

Yet again,this cost money.Selling a game for 30 bucks on ebay will not make enough for a recoupe of that magnatude.Ask any pressing firm,they will surely tell you this.You just have it stuck in your head of the small cost to produce the disc plastic,and no tthe total cost to master,press,make the stamper,print paperwork and packaging,and plastic wrap,plus manpower,which these people are not cheap.Im telling you a typical bootleg run will not generate the recoup required to make the money spent back,plus profit at the price the game is being sold.Not just this,but pressing PcEngine disc require older technoligy matsering software,that almost all plants have gotten rid of in favor of new ones.

Alot of it was abandoned back in 98-2k,way befor 2k1 rolled around.Part of the reason was y2k.Alot of companies were just ditching older hardware and software if it couldnt pass a clock test.So alot of plants switched to newer stuff back by the end of 99.You are going to be hard pressed to find a pressing plant willing to drag this older equipment out of storage that is required to press Sapphire at a small bootlegg press run of 1000-2000.Ther woul dbe no money in it at all.Ask any press plany manager,they will assure you of this.Making music cds i smuch cheaper too,dont compare the cost.A music cd does not require the same press quality test as often,does not usually have a full color booklet over 10 pages,and is made in huge numbers reaching over 10,000,thus making profit reachable since a marginal sell of the release will pay for the manufacture cost,testing,mastering,pressing,knickle plates,manpower,and so on.Funny how Im going into all this detail,and you guys have nothing equally informing to offer other then"its a fake".
Make a better arguement.Contact either Hudson,or Care 4 data.Inquire about the pressing.Tell Hudson about Care4 data,as if they ever used any othe rpress plant other then their own.
Do something more to prove your point then just spit out"its a fake".
This isnt a unreasonable request.If I can track down all the Care4 Data plants and give links on the forums here when this was originally debated,then you guys can write a few emails.

[Michael Helgeson]

Amazing I spat all that out while watching Big Trouble in Little China on laserdisc.

[Emerald Rocker]

You just put forth a theory on the difficulties in pressing a mere few thousand copies of Sapphire.

So who's more likely to do such a thing:
1) Hudson, to sell each copy at around 2000 Yen each (or so) to any retailers who still sell PCE games... and to do this without telling anyone so that even Japanese people say they're fake
2) a bootlegger, who will sell copies on eBay/YJ for 40 to 60 THOUSAND Yen each, and then dump boxes' worth of remaining stock to retailers at "bargain price" (2000 Yen each)

Anyways, I just emailed Care4Data to ask about their role in officially pressing forged Sapphire copies.  I eagerly await an affirmative response.

Just kidding.

[Michael Helgeson]

Actually you should email them.Why not,if you really want to know.And I think Hudson could take the cost easier then a bootlegger can.Hudson could eat the cost easy.50,000-80,000 dollars is ass-wipe money to Hudson,but to a bootlegger,that is not a easy recoupe.That is usually way more then a bootlegger will make in a few years Im sure.Shit even 150,000 isnt much to a large company,yet to a normal small guy operationits quite a bit(and is infact how much my house cost,in which I make around 11 grand a year,and my girlfriend makes 50 grand a year,and we will prob never get it paid off anyway), if they did it to break even,which is possible.At that time they could very well have broken even or made profit,back in 98-2k.And you have to remember stuff like Dead in the Brain was being pressed still,long after the system should have been dead.And they would have had to either way make the second print run different so that you could tell.Ive never seen any second print run mimic the first exactly.It just doesnt happen.And like I also stated before,youd never in your life see a "Best of"logo on a Pc Engine title,so it would be a more discrete rerelease.Also,I odnt live in Japan,and can not confirm how many are floating about,but can confirm from some LD collectors,people I chat with from Yahoo Japan that also collect games, that they did appear in 99,and were purchased at alot of normal game stores at average game cost.These are people who collect laseractive stuff,and who I found out that Game Stock Japan had a fully decked out Laseractive for a grand,and that Game Stock is a rip off too.
It could be a fake,but it could be real.But untill your going to inquire more info from the presser,and Hudson,and present facts to support any claims of a game being a fake,present some facts first.

[Emerald Rocker]

I would be embarrassed to ask a business if they engage in criminal behavior.  You do it.

As for facts: there are lots of facts indicating it's a fake.  The timing of the release, the discrete nature of the release, and the physical differences.  Those are all facts supporting it being a bootleg.

BUT:
"In 2001, Hudson decided to re-release Sapphire when they saw it on eBay!"
"Hudson didn't advertise because they didn't have special packaging!"
"The physical differences were because of y2K, when the old machinery was thrown out, because Hudson did wait 6 years to reprint the game, after all!"

Honestly, such claims are ridiculous.  Occam's Razor is a good tool, use it.

Unsupported claims of production costs (which are probably irrelevant because either 1- it was done by someone with inside/friend connections and thus didn't cost that much, or 2- was funded by Yakuza/gang-style organizations, or 3- was privately funded by a seller who already had a surplus of money) don't prove that Hudson did it -- it just shows that wow, it actually costs money to press CD's.  People are more likely to make that money back when they charge a lot per copy, which a Hudson reprint would not do.

No one is out to "eat" any costs.  They're out to spend money and make more than they spent.

But if you want to support and defend scammers who don't sell the product as what it really is, be my guest.  The proper way to sell these games, if they're going to be sold at all, is as "bootlegs priced low so that the average PC Engine enthusiast can enjoy the game".  But calling them "alternative versions", or a "possible reprint" is a SCAM that takes advantage of people who don't know any better.

I have more respect for sellers who overcharge for genuine products than scammers who sell $60 "alternative" Sapphires, because at least the over-chargers are advertising their product honestly, leaving the decision completely in the hands of the buyer.  The scammers try to influence the decision by lying/misleading about these fakes' origins.

[Michael Helgeson]

Why would you be embarrassed to ask about them doing a pressing?
And these I have been told by a few Laseractive collectors in Japan appeared back around 99,not 2k1,2k2,2k3.Youd be supprised ho wmany LD collectors actually loved the Pc-Engine,and things like that dont go unnoticed.But,I did not say Im positive its real either,and you are having a anal reaction to me simply asking you to show some real facts that lead towards it being a fake.
1.LD/PC Engine Laseractive collectors in Japan that I chat with on Yahoo have already told me that these have popped up in 99,not this last year.
2.The money being made on ebay right now is not enough to recoupe on cost,unless the largest majority is sold for the maxium amount in the fastest period.Since there are still afew here and there on ebay,I doubt this level of sale has been reached.If it was bootlegged,then I feel sorry for the saps who spent the cash to have it done,they didnt make the money back.
3.You have not contacted Care4Data,or Hudson about,to even try to prove them fake.You just "say" they are fake.That isnt really good enough.PROVE they are fake.
4.It isnt really as important to prove its real,its more important to prove its a fake,and prove the print run,and year of the pressing.The disc is just sitting there on the market,and its not going anywhere.
5.Peopel here in doubt,or feeling either way about this subject,are going to wonder untill its been "offically" confirmed.Your not a representive of Hudson or Care4Data.So you do not have the means,legal say or ability to do this.
This goes for anyone of you who say its a fake,and it also goes for me saying its real,which is why I say it could be either,and stand at that point of reason.I dont defend bootleggers either,as you just assumed.But I do support playing a game by any means given if the game is way out of print,released in a region other then the one you live in,and is not on cd-r.There is no market for it in the US for Hudson,or Germany for that matter,so why scorn anyone buying it.If your buying cd-r bootlegs,then your not buying any kind of product with any kind of quality.At least there are some bootleggers who take pride in their work,Ill give them that.If Sapphire press is a bootlegg run,its a damn good one,and its not something I could do.Till its proved to be either fake or real press,this conversation should be closed.Its a tired subject.

[Keranu]

Michael wins.

[Emerald Rocker]

When there's a simple and obvious answer (ie, "they're fake"), the burden of proof is on the person trying to state otherwise.

2.The money being made on ebay right now is not enough to recoupe on cost,unless the largest majority is sold for the maxium amount in the fastest period.Since there are still afew here and there on ebay,I doubt this level of sale has been reached.If it was bootlegged,then I feel sorry for the saps who spent the cash to have it done,they didnt make the money back.

If Hudson had really done a second pressing, then they lost a ton of money -- and lost it willingly.  That's absurd.  The original bootleggers already got their money back a long time ago.  The forgeries being sold on eBay now are second, third, or fourth-hand.  No one here is dumb enough to claim the guys selling stuff on eBay are the original bootleggers.

Anyways, they're fakes.  I'm done arguing against outlandish hypothetical scenarios.

[Michael Helgeson]

A guy with 17 post and no facts to present says what I have stated is "outlandish hypothetical scenarios".Your attitude and manner sucks.I only asked for you to present some facts that you base your reasoning off of.Not my faulght you couldnt do this.All you offered is the yakuza getting together with a huge multi region pressing plant company on the European side of the world to make Sapphire,or that broke ass bootleggers somehow managed to do the same,and put forth the huge cash amount required to master,produce a nickle stamp,press in the thousands,then quality package down to the plastic strip,which is in fact not cheap to do the tear away strip seals,they tack on extra cost,then manufacture alot of Hudson sealed boxes to ship them in all over Japan from Germany,or England.Yea,your right,your explanation is much more rock solid then mine.Did you ever think it would be easier to just leak the game unslealed in used game stores,thus providing a quicker sale if that was the case?Hell man,even better,screw the yakuza,they are too busy leaving bullet trails at Squaresofts office trying to get involved in a major company,and selling guns,prostution,and smack,I bet it could have really been ex-execs from the now de-funct 3DFX graphics chip company,yea,trying to make a quick buck after the big buy out from Nvidia.No,wait,even better,it was probably Gorge Bush in a failed attempt to claim there is a major Sapphire shortage so that prices can rise and fall every week.Since we are going to involve the Yakuza,huge European Pressing plants that I somehow doubt would do a mass run bootleg release with their name stamped all over every disc ,somehow extremely rich and very clever bootleggers,of which we have never heard of untill now,and mass amounts of cash that could never have been made back by now at the going price,thus causing said bootleggers to have died of starvation,as I have checked ebay sales of this game for the past 5 years now ,and have not seen the required amount up for sale to make the money back as not that many have actually been sold over the years for the super high amount,nor have enough of these been sold in Japan Im sure at the high enough required amount to make the money back,I guess if we go by your system of reason and process of elimanation,we can do just about anything!!!! Im sure heavy Pc Engine collectors over their could tell the difference much better then we can,as Id say they are far more qualified,and could tell the difference between a second print or fake for that matter from the original.Word would hit the street too fast there among pc engine collectors and players,thus causing the high asking amount to cease.But if the Yakuza have  aweb of fog over every Pc Engien colectors mind in Japan,then maybe they pulled it off for the past few years soemhow and sold almost everyone,or at least half of the supposed 2000-5000 required at over 300 us bucks.As Im sure this press plant didnt just do a small time 1000 disc press count.A knickle stamper can go to 10,000 presses before its no good,and becaus eof cost to do the stamper,they would not have done a 1000 press run,it would have been a waste,even if half the copies sold at 250-400 dollars each US wise,thats just not enough a profit margin.And if this is a bootleg,Like I said,it would have bene recognized pretty fast as so,and not sold for that amount.That would have had to be sneaky then,moving product slowly right?Well,sure,then by the time they are dead they will have paid the manufacture cost off.
At least you didnt use the Hamburgler in your scenero.

[Michael Helgeson]

Not only that but heck,why stop at Sapphire,when you could do Dracula X,or any of the other rare shooters?A few years back,Dracula X was at its peak,where as Sapphire was not,so it would have been wiser to do Dracula X.