I Purchased Sapphire!

[MotherGunner]

Not only that but heck,why stop at Sapphire,when you could do Dracula X,or any of the other rare shooters?A few years back,Dracula X was at its peak,where as Sapphire was not,so it would have been wiser to do Dracula X.

Exactly what I said.

[Emerald Rocker]

That paragraph was too long for me to read, so I didn't.

I actually did some checking around, because there was something that was really bugging me throughout this whole discussion... namely, about the supposedly prohibitive manufacturing prices.  This bugged me even more because of how common bootleg GBA games are (which I figure should cost more to manufacture).

I found out that it should only cost about $1,300 to professionally press 1000 copies of the actual CD's with color artwork on the disc.  Even doubling the price (to cover printing the color booklet and shrink-wrapping the cases), that's less than 3 grand.  Now let's double that just to be fun.

Wow, six whole grand!  If someone has an inside connection at the pressing plant, even cheaper.

So anyways, since it would actually be pretty cheap to press some nice-looking Sapphire discs, we can assume it was just one random guy.  Or maybe him and a few buddies.  So we don't really need to involve the Yakuza or other crime syndicates (although they are deeply involved in bootleg anime DVD production) -- it's safe to blame this on a group of 3 or 4 random people.  Fifteen Sapphires sold at full price, the rest dumped on retailers at $20 each... even at the lowest expectation, that's a healthy profit.  It's not hard to sell 15 fakes at full price on JAPANESE AUCTIONS.  If the others were cheap enough, they'd be easy to sell even after people realize what's going on.

For other rarities, it would take 30 to 40 sold at full value on JAPANESE AUCTIONS to recoup the cost, which really shouldn't be hard, but it still makes a little bit more sense to pick Sapphire -- it's harder to detect (being a rare game in the first place, which Drac X is not) and especially good timing considering the sudden rise in demand (due to arcade cards flooding the market).

The only question left is this: why would Japanese bootleggers go through a European company?  So maybe the bootleggers were European.  Or maybe the bootleggers were just trying to cover their tracks by using a non-local pressing plant.

[Keranu]

Michael stated a reason why they would decide to use a European presser in the original thread I posted. I'm too lazy to copy and paste and I'm sure Michael will bring it up anyways.

[Michael Helgeson]

SO what is your source for the price quote for a data/audio master and a thousand presses?
Did you aks them if they are still able to press these types of disc?
Can you list a company and give contact info for this?
Id like to know,because the lowest quote I recieved from Care4Data for using the older mastering equipment and to do the smallest print run they offered was going to cost around 16,237.00 euros.I contacted them back when this discussion first started to find out if they still had the ability to press these types of disc,and the cost involved,which is why I know as much as I do now.I actually put the extra effort forth to do this kind of research.I gave all contact info for Care4Data also.In US bucks that is around $20.000.And this did not include a fully decked out complete disc with full packaging.
Since I dont know of any other cd presser in the world except maybe JVC,which I know for sure will not do older type data/audio cheap,and will laugh and scoff at you for asking,your info is bunk.
Also back in 2001 I had inquired to JVC for my aunt and uncle,who are musicians, about getting a music cd they did pressed and mastered so they could stop the cd-r crap and audio tape junk,and stop cutting wax records,cause taht blew,and if they could do cd+g and how much the cost would be,and I was given a even more expensive price quote then Care4Datas cheap one for Pc-Engine pressing.

You keep on forgetting also that to press Pc Engine/Turbo CD games you need older mastering equipment that is no longer in use by everyone else,and that by stupid luck either way Care4Data will still do them.You need proof of how costly and hard it is to obtain a  Pc Engine cd game presser in the US? Email Mindrec.Im sure they can tell you all their woes.They ran out of pressers last I heard.Otherwise dont toss about average manufacture cost for standard cd disc.They dont apply here because you are requiring more custom work then the average press plant does anymore.Turbo/Pc Engine cd are not mastered the same way,and as anyone tech wise here knows are not read the same way.Its not as easy or as cheap as bootlegging Tekken 3 for PSX in Taiwan,or lets say making a music cd.Its not done using the same methods and equipment and software.NO ONE does them anymore.Same for Jauguar CD games.No one does those by the normal method either.Your not going to win this arguement,so let it go.You are not providing any real useful info in regards to this,and your mostly just spreading your ideas and opinions,and what little facts you have offered dont apply to the PC Engine scene,like Yakuza bootlegging anime,and average cd audio cost for a crap music cd to be pressed.

[MotherGunner]

I second the verdict.  Michael wins.

[GUTS]

Michael does not win.  This arguement just shows how people want to believe in magical things in life instead of the cold hard facts.  The game is a f*cking fake that Hudson was not involved with in any way, DEAL WITH IT.  Every point that the Rocker makes is glossed over and ignored in favor of outlandish bullshit claims that support that "second run" theory.  

Seriously I dont see how in any way you could believe that Hudson would do a tiny 1000 copy second run of a game that was 6 years old and not advertise to any potential buyers.  Do you guys actually think they had some employee in a YAHOO AUCTIONS division who sold them all for the company?  Jesus.  If they had actually done a second run of the game then f*cking distributors would have had them in stock and places like NCSX and shit would have been selling them like hotcakes.

Also, that mindrec example has f*ck ALL to do with anything.  If there's money to be made from pirating something, then pirates will find a way to do.  Just because some goofs in the US programming crappy asteroids clones can't find someone to press Turbo CDs doesn't mean some dedicated pirates couldn't do it easily.

[Michael Helgeson]

Wow,I didnt know you liked knocking one of only 2 groups still making Turbo Cd games,neither of which were all that bad for fun play.What have you released on a real pressed cd as of late Guts?Also what you and your dumass friend seem to ignore is the simple fact I dont care either way,that its all moot,because I dont like the game myself.What I really love is the fact you 2 keep getting the date wrong.It has been confirmed by a game store seller in the US already that this appeared in 99,not as of late,and yes,they did think it was a bootleg.I dont blame them.But as Im in no position to confirm or deny either way,I wont assume anything.And you 2 f*ckbeads cant produce simple facts on here to defend your reasons either way it goes.Nor did I state it was a 1000 press disc run.I only quoted what a 1000 disc press would cost a couple months ago from Care 4Data.That was the quote they gave me for doing old mastering and pressing type.They are one of maybe a few in the world that still do it,this I know for a fact.I know JVC still can also,but charges way way more.Seems I have done way more foot work then either of you on this subject,all you have done is resort to bashing everyone like litle school kids because no one agrees with you.Maybe if you chilled out and presented some solid facts that didnt involve major press plants,yakuza,and broke ass bootleggers,and didnt resort to bashing when ever someone didnt agree with your "opinion" maybe youd have someone agreeing with you here.Have you not been brite enough to notice that I do in some respects agree with you?It could very possibly be a fake.I believe the axe could swing either way.I cant prove its a fake,and I cant confirm its real,but I sure did present you with some facts leaning towards being real,and gave you information to use to find out on your own.Funny how you have not been able to do the same.What are you more worried about,winning a lame arguement,or locating more information?Im in it for the information side of things,but if given a chance,I will roll with ya.Esp. considering your bashing 2 others for just simply not agreeing with you,when you have given them no reason to in the first place.and with the manner you are acting now,your not helping your case.

[esteban]

Folks, it's time to get real.

Emerald Rocker has presented the most likely -- and most persausive -- explanation concerning these copies of Sapphire.

If you aren't swayed by Rocker's argument(s), then there is another principle that is useful in situations like this:

When in doubt, err on the side of caution (or, in this case, "skepticism").

Sorry folks, but we MUST assume that these are bootlegged copies. Michael has offered creative theories, but they are groundless, especially when compared to the well-known strategies and practices of bootlegging.

[Michael Helgeson]

Someone did find Care 4 Data,and paid them alot,bootleggers or whoever.Was this not stated already?You guys are making me repeate this over and over again.
And Mindrec actually made a couple of real games for the system so far.Thats alot more then I can say for myself,and actually got someone to press them.I guess next your going to go on a Frozen Utopia bash?after all I did read somewhere they are doing a Netopia 3 right?Since your so against more of the same then your prob going to knock that too.And since your so f*cking smarter then MindRec,how many press plants can you name off here that will do the press style needed to get a new game out?Since you seem to be withholding some magical special only for your eyes list of cd pressing plants that charge super cheap,and can do old style glass masters and pressing,and all for under 2grand,do you think you can bestow upon us all this wonderful knowledge?

[Michael Helgeson]

I don't really see the reason to counterfeit some 10 year old game with such precision.  I realize that some scammer could enter any collectors' market and entice those people with authentic looking "rare" stuff and make off with the cash.  However, in this case, the accuracy of the packaging and seemingly thorough attention to detail would suggest, IMO, that there was a lot of effort to reproduce this so-called fake.. perhaps more effort than it was worth to scam the market.

Anyway, it'd be nice to have Sapphire selling at lower prices and I wouldn't mind snagging one of these questionable copies.  If no one can prove it's fake, then it isn't.

[Michael Helgeson]

Untill Hudson says its a fake,its not.Hudson has the final say,not you Guts or anyone of us.

[zborgerd]

I doubt that Hudson will ever say *anything*.  They likely don't know, or don't even care.

This is undoubtably a fake.  A good one, but certainly fake.  I knew it when I ordered one.  Most everyone else did.  The likelyhood of Hudson reproducing a game for a niche market *in Europe* (where all of these seem to come from) is slim to none.

[Michael Helgeson]

My question is this then,have any of you tried to contact Hudson Japan concerning the matter?No one here,wether skeptical or sure of it or not,can say they are real or fake for 100 percent sure untill "Hudson" says one way or the other.Its their game,not ours.They are the creators,
and if you really cared to try to find out one way or the other,or at least how Hudson feels about these pressed disc floating about,why not try to send a email.Im sure if enough of you did,your most likly to get a response back.My friend never even opened either 2 of his copies,
so I never looked at the inside of them,Im just relying on the pics I have seen,and the package quality of his,but considering all my years in gaming,being in it in retail at a store where rare stuff came in daily,I never came across a bootlegg of anything done this well,which is why to me it could be either or.I will stick to that untill Stevek666,Guts,or whoever can get Hudson to say otherwise.
And if you could,this would be even better for the market,because if they are fakes,and you could properly publicly expose this by getting Hudson to confirm this,then the price of these on ebay will prob drop next to nill,where they should be,if indeed Hudson will declair them as fakes.
You just stating they are fakes isnt good enough for the vast majority of buyers and collectors out there.Most people are probably going to assume they are real untill it is confirmed by a reliable source that they infact are not.This source will need to be Hudson.
Also,most all of my pressing information is not theory.its all fact,and took alot of time to research.I in no way considered it a waste,because I get to slap it in there with the ld pressing information I gathered,which is really why I contacted Care4Data to begin with.I had wanted to know if they did at one time or still had the ability to do LD pressing,or the smaller ld technoligy,CD-Video,which is not to be confused with video-cd.
I usually dont ever go opening my mouth untill I get something information wise from someone first,a company,respected resource,and so on.I do not see any of you doing the same.You stated a arguement invloving the yakuza,a major pressing plant,and bootleggers,which Id like you to do this,show some more fakes on here of this level of quality,Id really like to see them.The above is a theory,and not known for 100 percent sure.What Id also like to know is why none of you have tried to contact Hudson over it to really find out?Also,these first started appearing in Japan in 99 I am told by some laseractive collectors I chat with,and back then when they did,Hudson was not confirming or dening them one way or the other.

[Michael Helgeson]

I doubt that Hudson will ever say *anything*.  They likely don't know, or don't even care.

This is undoubtably a fake.  A good one, but certainly fake.  I knew it when I ordered one.  Most everyone else did.  The likelyhood of Hudson reproducing a game for a niche market *in Europe* (where all of these seem to come from) is slim to none.

Its funny you should say that,and my reply to it is this,Hudson would indeed do so if they no longer used,had running their own pressing equipment.
Also Laserdisc was a niche market,1 million owners compared to 16 million vcr owners,yet laserdisc were comonally manufactured in Eruopean pressing plants,and in Japan,even though we had full capability in the US to make them.Thi sis also the case with music cds.If you actually cared to start tracking your mint mark info down,you will find depending on what kind of music you listen to,that alot of your music cds will be pressed outside of the US,or in the US,depending on where you live,even though in about every region of the world there is a Pressing plant of some kind with the ability to at least do music cd and DVD 9.

[Michael Helgeson]

Also,these didnt appear in Europe first in 99.They only just started appearing in Europe this last year.Japan was the first known area of sale,and from what it seems the US is second.SO these Sapphires,real or not,were not created for the niche market of Europe,where the amount of owners with arcade cards are probably not that high in number.