Naysayers

[esteban]

Most folks here understand that I must defend the honor of games that are needlessly shat upon by the general gaming public. The hoi polloi, if you will.

But what of the gurus, the experts, the professionals?

Needless to say, I am deeply saddened when the priests of gaming proceed to shite upon the very same games.

These days, it seems that I find myself asking, "Why all the hate?" with increasing frequency.

Exhibit 1:
15 minutes with China Warrior

This is an old "article" and it might have been posted on the forums already. But that doesn't matter. Because I want to vent.

Now, listen, I know that most folks aren't fans of China Warrior...
And I know that Mr. Kohler is probably a nice fellow...

but I loathe,
I utterly despise,
I wholeheartedly, and passionately deplore
his lazy dismissal of China Warrior.

I know this was a throwaway, "humor" post for Mr. Kohler; I can see that he spent more time taking a picture of his TurboExpress (a nice touch, by the way) than actually playing the game + writing the text.

But come on!

MORAL: At this point, it's just too damn easy to mock the same old games in the same old way. Try. That's all I ask: try. I appreciate the photo you took, Mr. Kohler. Now apply that sort of effort in other areas of your career.

P.S.: Oh my, I almost forgot... In defense of China Warrior.

[TurbografxKid]

You bring to my mind another game that I have never read a good review. That game is "Samurai Ghost." I really enjoy playing this game. I know that the animation of the character is stiff, but I like the game's weirdness and I have fun playing it. "Keith Courage" is another game that the critics like to trash. I spent hours and hours on that game when I first got my Turbo Grafx 16. And I still go back and play it occasionally.

You have aroused my curiosity about “China Warrior.” I have not sought it out, but I think it might be one of my next interests.

[ceti alpha]

"Keith Courage" is another game that the critics like to trash. I spent hours and hours on that game when I first got my Turbo Grafx 16. And I still go back and play it occasionally.

Yeah, KC gets shat on a lot. I tend to think it's because it was the pack-in game for the TG. There were definitely much worse games for the system that were sold separately, including some CD games. KC suffered from repetitive gameplay (many of the levels were far too similar), but had fantastic colours and some great sound effects and music.

[nat]

I'd gladly take KC as a pack-in over [the Genesis version of] Altered Beast any day.

[ceti alpha]

I'd gladly take KC as a pack-in over [the Genesis version of] Altered Beast any day.

So true. How many kids that got a Genny for Christmas were forced to fool themselves and make comments like, "OMG! Listen to the 'Power-up' voice!", or, "The NES or TG isn't able to show teh muscle detail like this.". Altered Beast is a royal stinker (I haven't played the two PCE ports, yet). I would gladly play KC over AB any day.

[SignOfZeta]

I'd gladly take KC as a pack-in over [the Genesis version of] Altered Beast any day.

In 1989 I couldn't honestly say that. Now that both games are ancient and the flash of AB has long since gone stale its pretty obvious that KC is a waaaay better game than any version of AB.

[esteban]

You bring to my mind another game that I have never read a good review. That game is "Samurai Ghost." I really enjoy playing this game. I know that the animation of the character is stiff, but I like the game's weirdness and I have fun playing it. "Keith Courage" is another game that the critics like to trash. I spent hours and hours on that game when I first got my Turbo Grafx 16. And I still go back and play it occasionally.

You have aroused my curiosity about “China Warrior.” I have not sought it out, but I think it might be one of my next interests.

My friend, welcome.

Samurai Ghost, as it happens, is another game that I used to propagandize. It has wonderful,  subtle little details that make it enjoyable to play (I like jumping up in the air and slicing down on enemies underneath, the parrying/blocking, etc.).

It is a challenging game, and no doubt many people have naysayed it simply out of frustration and anger.

[Arkhan]

This is what happens when ignorant gimps are allowed to talk about video games.  Most of these "hip console guys" that are all over the internet and on TV can't tell a Genesis from a load in their face. 

"REMEBER WHEN WE USED TO PLAY SUPER SONIC BROTHERS 2 ON OUR ATARI 486 GUYS?!  THE RETRO 8BIT DAYS WERE SO KEWL.  I LOVE PIXELS AND 2 BUTTONS CAUSE IM HIP"

I bet after he slagged China Warrior, he went down to Starbucks, got a frapamoolatecino and got on facebook and set his status to "IM SO GAMER I SHIT PIXELS"

And in true idiot fashion, he called the hucard a CARTRIDGE.        BUT ITS OK He used a Turbo Express, which means hes hip and in the know about the Turbo.    I wonder if it was a cover up since he probably spells Turbo Grafx as "TURBO GRAPHIXS"

Its quite obvious he didn't play it at the time of its release and is comparing it to modern standards.

What other game at the time had sprites that big?  Its not like KUNG FU on the NES offers any more depth than China Warrior.    China Warrior is like a bigger, better, more Audio/Visual appealing version of Kung Fu.






China Warrior kicks ass, they cant cope.

and Keith Courage is a better pack-in than MARIO/DUCKHUNT or Altered Beast.    I'd rather dance in rainbows, turn into a sweet power armored lunatic and kill giant walking pistols and frankenstein monsters than wise fwum my gwave and fight Uncle Fester and his autistic minions.

Not to mention, hey! You save the girl.  You're still a corpse.   Chicks don't dig literal crotch rot at all. 

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, I don't know. I'm with you on these shit head game journalists, but China Warrior is a bad game. Its amazingly awkward and terrible. Why do the monks in the first stage not swing? They just...bump into, and do damage to you while dying at the same time. WTF is with the birds? Why would little sparrows hurt you. Why does punching them kill them when your fist doesn't even touch them? It isn't at all as good as Kung Fu (NES). In fact, it sucks compared to any of the cookie cutter platforms on PCE with smaller sprites like Momotauo Katsugeki, Blue Blink, Keith Courage, or any of the Wonderboy/Adventure Islands. Its better than Energy.

At the same time: "If there is another game that should more rightly be held up as the poster child for dog crap titles of the 16-bit era, I would like to know about it."

That's some BS right there. As bad as the game is, it is at least playable. Supposedly he reviewed this game because of a vote. If this is the case then at least he could have come up with something interesting to say about a game that had already been shit on by a half dozen other crappy reviewers like him.

The point of China Warrior was huge sprites. It succeeded in this area and because of that it is somewhat beyond criticism. Sword of Sodan (Amiga) was in the same ball park, but not on consoles at that time (I think). A reviewer that can't place himself in the context of 1989 where the graphics in this game blew people's minds isn't worth a shit. However, a reviewer that can't place himself in 1995 and see how amazing Toshinden (PS) was is also worthless. Toshinden was shit, but it was fad shit that served a purpose. Same with China Warrior.

[Arkhan]

I didn't think China Warrior was that awkward.  Kung Fu on NES aint exactly a smooth walk in the park.   Though the best comparison for Kung Fu on NES is Vigilante.  They play the same almost. 


At the time of China Warriors release it had the most BAMF'd sprites to date.

It presents a moderate challenge, the music is pretty thumpin', and who cares if the monks don't actually attack.

Its not like all the dudes in Vigilante, KC, or other games throw punches.  they just walk into you.  That sort of thing is in a lot of games, why only complain about it in China Warrior. 

also the box art rules. I don't see whats wrong with it or why the guy is complaining.


I bought China Warrior in 2001.  Thats the first time I even played the game.  I still think it rules.

[DragonmasterDan]

I didn't think China Warrior was that awkward.  Kung Fu on NES aint exactly a smooth walk in the park.   Though the best comparison for Kung Fu on NES is Vigilante.  They play the same almost. 

Kung Fu may not be smooth. But it's fun. The same cannot be said at all regarding China Warrior.

[Arkhan]

Kung Fu may not be smooth. But it's fun. The same cannot be said at all regarding China Warrior.

*shrug*   Its fun in my book

[Black Tiger]

Most folks here understand that I must defend the honor of games that are needlessly shat upon by the general gaming public. The hoi polloi, if you will.

But what of the gurus, the experts, the professionals?

Needless to say, I am deeply saddened when the priests of gaming proceed to shite upon the very same games.

These days, it seems that I find myself asking, "Why all the hate?" with increasing frequency.

Exhibit 1:
15 minutes with China Warrior

This is an old "article" and it might have been posted on the forums already. But that doesn't matter. Because I want to vent.

Now, listen, I know that most folks aren't fans of China Warrior...
And I know that Mr. Kohler is probably a nice fellow...

but I loathe,
I utterly despise,
I wholeheartedly, and passionately deplore
his lazy dismissal of China Warrior.

I know this was a throwaway, "humor" post for Mr. Kohler; I can see that he spent more time taking a picture of his TurboExpress (a nice touch, by the way) than actually playing the game + writing the text.

But come on!

MORAL: At this point, it's just too damn easy to mock the same old games in the same old way. Try. That's all I ask: try. I appreciate the photo you took, Mr. Kohler. Now apply that sort of effort in other areas of your career.

P.S.: Oh my, I almost forgot... In defense of China Warrior.

I was more shocked by the rotten IGN reviews that were linked. The 1up review didn't work. First of all, even in the most negative frame of mind, China Warrior isn't even close to be nearly as bad as retro-hip game reviewers try to make it out to be. Even if they don't get it, it's still a functional game with gameplay. There are tons of unplayable non-interactive non-games for 8 & 16-bit consoles as well as what passes as full retail games today for DS and Wii.

The main reason China Warrior gets dumped on is by the selective logic that Turbo-haters love to use (ie: you can only compare HuCards to Genesis & SNES cart games). Even though it makes no sense, they expect hyper realism from the game. Even though it was still the early 16-bit generation and even though games today still haven't achieved that level of realism (try as they might), China Warrior haters actually question the logic of the theme and enemy types.

Why don't retro-hip reviewers question where Mario's wrench is and why touching mushrooms and glowing flowers changes him. Why don't they ask "OMG WHY THE HELL ARE THE FREAKING FLOWERS GLOWING!?!" There's never any question of why a hedgehog is blue and how people could live in world of messed up mazes (even now that Sonic games are in our world). No one criticizes beat 'em ups for have a few hundred twins, or for shooters to have planes/ships flying into power ups safely, yet exploding on contact with walls or enemies.

It's only when these people decide for whatever reason to blindly dismiss a game like China Warrior instead of simply judge it as a game that hyper-logic suddenly comes into play. That's why you can't take a review by someone like this seriously. If they throw their own logic out the door to begin with to criticize a game this way, how can we assume they're being "fair and balanced" with the rest?

The fact is China Warrior isn't a Kung Fu or Final Fight clone, it's a Gladiator clone. I've never heard anyone criticize Gladiator for realism. BITD everyone in my hometown appreciated it for what it is. All arcade games were ridiculous as realism simulators. But Gladiator actually offered a unique gameplay and aesthetic experience. That's why everyone I know who saw or played it has never forgotten it. The same things that China Warrior haters ridicule it for are the same things everyone especially loved about Gladiator. Especially the steamroller wheel.

Hudson could've just given us a similarly themed Gladiator sequel. Thankfully they instead gave us a game set in a totally different world and made it all the more impressive with highly animated solid sprites instead of jumbles. They did a perfect job replacing the obstacles with Hong Kong martial arts movie equivalents. And have any China Warrior haters even seen a Chinese martial arts film? Has there ever been one made where they didn't use martial arts against inanimate objects?

[nectarsis]

I for one am not a hater of China Warrior, but hardly the OMFGZ SCREW ALL THE HATR+ERS THIS GAMEZ IS GREATZ Arkhan either.  Especially when it came out, it def impressed with the sprite size, and graphics...playability not so much.

As for asking about people that dislike it ever having even seen a chinese martial arts film.  Why yes, more than I can count.  I'm nowhere near an expert, but yeah show me one GOOD HK kung fu/wuxia flick where they get there asses beat by flying potatoes, or hungover monks that just stumble into you   You won't see Bruce, Jackie, Jet, Donny being so stiff, getting beat by flora.  And yes there are MANY martial arts films that don't have any violence against inanimate objects

Sadly even in this day and age we have yet to see a GREAT MA type game thats varied, and realistic (outside of possibly the musou games).

[blueraven]

I for one am not a hater of China Warrior, but hardly the OMFGZ SCREW ALL THE HATR+ERS THIS GAMEZ IS GREATZ Arkhan either. 

 

I'm inclined to side with you on that, nectarsis.

The second column was a rant about buyers remorse and the author blames the downfall of his childhood on a decent game that he wasn't any good at. I have no sympathy.

I have made far worse trades, and b1tcH3d less.