Did the PC Engine die at the right time?

[sunteam_paul]

I was thinking about this while driving home. Do you think the PC Engine died just at the right time?

Looking at the direction the software was heading, I am sort of happy that it didn't go on for much longer. With the growing trends, what would we have seen? A multitude of one-on-one fighting games (that never really interested me), lots more Japanese dating sims... One thing that I dislike in 2D games around that time is the growing use of pre-rendered 3D graphics - taking a look at Sapphire, it shows this trend, with lots of fake polygon sprites and 'effects' such as morphing. To me, they show the start of the decline of well crafted hand-drawn graphics, and I would imagine that more and more PC Engine games would have followed suit. Any thoughts?

[Necromancer]

If the last few titles released ('96 vintage) are any indication of the type of game that would've been put out had they held on a few more years, then I say they quit too soon.  The SF2 band wagon jumping had mostly run its course by then and there's no wish-it-were 3D crap in Madou Monogatari, Puyo Puyo 2, Bazaaru de Gozaaru, Steam Heart's (3D nipples?), or Go! Go! Birdie Chance.

[exodus]

It did die at the right time. Necromancer, you'd be right if the 32 bit systems hadn't come along, but they did. Nobody third parties were going to support the PCE any longer, they were going to go where the money was, so about all they'd do would be mediocre back-ports or dating sims. It would've ended with much more of a fizzle if they'd kept going, like the PS2 library of today.

[nectarsis]

It did die at the right time. Necromancer, you'd be right if the 32 bit systems hadn't come along, but they did. Nobody third parties were going to support the PCE any longer, they were going to go where the money was, so about all they'd do would be mediocre back-ports or dating sims. It would've ended with much more of a fizzle if they'd kept going, like the PS2 library of today.

PS2..fizzle..the system that was still going fairly strong close to 3 years AFTER it's successor came out (and still has a few games coming out even now)?

The PCE was def dying support wise.  Considering how long support lasted, and what was done on very aged hardware it was still impressive.  Especially considering it wasn't a "huge hit" in the US/Europe sales wise the library as a whole (both TG & PCE) is still rather impressive in amount of games, and variety.

[shubibiman]

I would have liked to see Super Street Fighter 2 or Donpachi adaptations on the arcade card. It would have been far from the original games but still, I think they could have made great conversions.

[awack]

I would have liked to have seen stronger support into 1996, the PCE had some really good RPGs released in 95 (Xanadu II, Anearth fantasy stories) i can imagine Xanadu III, anearth fantasy stories 2 or Ys V, for the Arcade card.

[Necromancer]

It did die at the right time. Necromancer, you'd be right if the 32 bit systems hadn't come along, but they did. Nobody third parties were going to support the PCE any longer, they were going to go where the money was, so about all they'd do would be mediocre back-ports or dating sims.

I'd buy your argument, if it weren't for the Super Famicom's seemingly contradictory library.  1995 was arguably the last year of real support for the PCE, as only 11 titles were released after that year (1.5% of its library); the SF saw 245* games released in that same time period (14.6% of its library).  The SF admittedly had a much larger library (more than double) and greater third party support, but given such a startlingly vast disparity, coupled with the fact that many of the latter SF titles were fantastically original and among the best of its library, it's impossible to believe that few cared about the 16-bitters after '95.

* - The list I used included Satellaview titles, and undoubtedly a fair number of these 245 titles were Satellaview titles.  It's still support, I suppose, but hardly the same as a bona fide release.

[Vecanti]

Part of my thinks it did.  In the US it just seemed to never really make it.  But if it had tried to keep going well into and after the PS1/PS2 (2000) era I think it would have lost some of the respect it had.   PS1, though I never owned one, was really a technological leap.

On the other hand, looking at games from 87-91 and then looking at things like Xanadu, Saphire, etc it's almost unbelievable that it's the same hardware.  The programmers worked some real magic.  It would have been awesome to see them keep going.  I think there are some titles that reach the early PS1 level of games as far as 2D is concerned.

Of course I would have loved to see the PC Engine line continue with updated hardware. Even if the hardware was different there were so many talented PC Engine programmers that had a unique style.  I think most of that was lost though to 3D so maybe even a 3D hardware PC Engine wouldn't have been the same.


What ever happened to all the developer systems that must have been used to make all the PC Engine games?

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah...kind of. There are so many of those shitty dating games, digital comics, and other non-games from the end of the PCE's life that part of me feels glad that it didn't keep going like that. On the other hand those games are really just evidence of what was left after real interest in the system moved on and it became way too otaku-ized.

There were a few trends in mid to late PCE life that I really wish would have continued for a little while longer. I wish more stuff like Kaze Kiri and Sapphire were made instead of Graduation II. Also, Bandai made the first decent Dragon Ball Z game on PC Engine, and it makes me wonder what more that team could have done with the PCE. I also would have liked to see some real Arcade Card support. Its so frustrating how underused the AC is. I also wish that Aim for the Top! 3 and Silent Mobius actually got finished...although that's just me being selfish since really thats more of the otaku crap.

So basically I wish it would have stayed healthier for longer, but died at the same time...sorta. I agree that it would have just been painful to see the PCE overrun with pre-rendered sprites.

[Tom]

I think its time of death was fine, just not the *way* it died (see below). I can't really see it going on much further into '97/98. I'm sure the licensing fee *was* cheap near the end, and that 3rd party companies *still* could have carried on with it as niche platform. But it just didn't really happen like that. Did NEC pull the plug on licenses altogether stopping this from happening? 1999 release of DotB was surprising though. Not sure what they were thinking.

  What bothered me the most, is that it took quite some time for developers to put in some *real* production values into games (CD games that is). It seems to me that the system was living off the charm of the 8bit era transition - basic playing/looking games... but still fun. They were kind of late to change with the times. It seem like in 1992 with the release of the Duo, SCD, and GOT things were finally changing, and in 1993 with some other titles holding promise - that the system was finally gonna get some higher end production titles by 3rd party companies. But that really wasn't the case. Companies (mostly 3D party) were still putting out minimal effort in animation/graphics/layout in general. As if there wasn't really a drive to compete on the platform, to raise the bar so to speak. Not that many of the games were bad mind you, they just weren't top tier or close to it - nicely polished like on the competitive systems. I mean, knowing what the PCE was capable of from early on. Kinda begs the question of what was going on. At least to me. There's no FF4 or FF6 on the PCE CD at the time or *platformers* that were up to snuff. You don't need scaling/rotation/transparency or even massive parallax to make some really great games or platformers. There's no excuse for that. Or ChronoTrigger or Super Mario RPG, DKC (even if I don't care for the game) etc of the later/last generation of games. Where was a badass Super PC-Genjin RPG for SCD? Some games came close (in one or two genres and that was near the end), but most didn't even come close to that level of production value IMO. And this, coming from a CD gaming machine - not some cart restricted system.

 The SCD upgrade and the Duo was supposed to be thee next stage of the system software development. The next level. Time to get serious. To bring it to the next level with the other systems. To be on par in *all* genres (IMO). But it ended up being a mix bag. ACD appeared to be the fix for this. Finally - now we are getting somewhere, but it ended up just being a teaser. The ACD bi-compatible games barely take any noticeable advantage of the card. Some reduced load times? Big deal. Where was the additional animation, samples, unique tiles/upgraded graphics for these bi-compatible games? No where. The ACD only games? Aside from strider, which really isn't an ACD game at all but an old SCD project brought back from the dead to be released on the ACD to remove load times, all the other ACD only games didn't disappoint from what I've played. The NeoGeo ports are fantastic. Sapphire was great, though I'm not a fan of *all* the graphic styles of the game, the game itself is of high production value. From the high frame rate animation (morphing/bosses/scaling/polygon motion/etc) to the action on screen, stage layout, FX, detail, etc. And 2 player co-op mode. (Sadly, the weapon SFX suck) With enough memory restriction/limitations removed and companies putting in great effort.

 But then... some of those last *great* gems that came out in '95/96 (even earlier in late 94) *didn't* even bother to take advantage of the Arcade Card. That's the true shame of the end of the PCE's life. Not that it had so few titles near the end, but that ACD was just kinda forgotten. The ACD died before the PCE died. The ACD dream was dead. Dead before it was realized. And as consolation we were given a few parting gifts and gems (and mostly non ACD) as the PCE itself, without the might of the ACD to make it *really* shine, rapidly faded away in the background.. and then into nothingness.

[Tatsujin]

PCE WILL NEVER DIE!! but only for those who know.

[SignOfZeta]

To understand why the PCE doesn't have an FF-grade RPG...its all numbers, I'd imagine.

If you look at the size of staff and the development time of a game like Chrono Trigger...its just HUGE. Of course its nothing compared to todays games (Gran Turismo 5 for PS3, 5 years in the making, $60,000,000 in dev costs, and delayed AGAIN) but the market in general was smaller back then. A SFC RPG from square would sell 2-10 times as many units and cost a lot more (12,800 yen or so versus the usual 7,800 yen for PCE games). This results in small dev teams. Really small dev teams. As in, you call the support number and the head programmer answers the phone to help you get unstuck...that kind of small.

Then take into account the increased time and money that go into the audio portion of things, and the need to hire an outside contractor for character designs on even the most mundane of genres (racing, gambling) and you pretty much have the PC Engine economy right there.

The games that best compare to high end RPGs from Square, Enix, etc are the Cosmic Fantasy series and the games from Rayforce (Startling Odyssey, Star Breaker) but even those went pretty simplistic, obviously spending their budget on graphics, audio, theme songs, etc rather than beefing up the actual gameplay. The end result is that the RPGs that are the most fun to play on PC often end up being the ones with a smaller scope to begin with. The Y's series, for example.

The Arcade Card is disappointing, but hardly surprising. It cost half as much as an entire Super Famicom, for starters. And the point of the AC is to give you more memory...but everything you are going to fill that memory with costs money to make! If Star Breaker had cinemas with as high end as the opening of 3x3 Eyes the game would cost at least as much as a SFC RPG, and would it sell as many units? I don't see how it could.

Also, and this is not really related, if anything the ACD increased load times usually. Super CDs had virtually no load times (not by post PS1 standards anyway) since 256k of RAM just doesn't take very long to fill. Compare something like Advanced VG or Asuka 120% to Fatal Fury 2 or Art of Fighting.

[nectarsis]

GT5=$60,000,000!?!?!?

[shonenx]

Everyone here has made some really good points on both sides . Ultimately it sounds like we all really wish that the spirit of the system had continued on in its a truly capable NEC sucessor system.......( And not just successfully in Japan )

[Necromancer]

To understand why the PCE doesn't have an FF-grade RPG...its all numbers, I'd imagine.

etc.

Agreed, especially when you consider that there was zero chance of bringing it to the US market (towards the end of the PCE's life, that is).

Also, and this is not really related, if anything the ACD increased load times usually. Super CDs had virtually no load times (not by post PS1 standards anyway) since 256k of RAM just doesn't take very long to fill. Compare something like Advanced VG or Asuka 120% to Fatal Fury 2 or Art of Fighting.

It increased the initial load time, but it could reduce the number of subsequent loads (i.e. - platformers could have one long level instead of two shorter levels, or RPGs wouldn't need to reload for battles or when entering different areas).