IF, the PCE never got a CD-ROM add-on..

[Tatsujin]

I actually believe that. Not because I think that Bonk's Revenge is so great, I've just never liked the 2D Mario games much (with the exception of Yoshi's Island). Call me a lunatic, but there it is.

lol, for me it's just vice versa. liked all the 2D marios, except the weak, slow & quite boring yoshi's island.

sure, super mario world is the best mario ever made and probably one of the most fun giving 2D platformer in existence.

[Arkhan]

While the fanboys here would argue that Bonk's Revenge is better that Super Mario World all day (just as the people on the CDi or Jaguar forums would say that Burn Cycle or Trever McFur hold their own against their competition of the day) the reality is that even a mediocre Mickey Mouse title on Genesis or SNES is lightyears beyond any TG-16 platformer in the eyes of most people. Therefore, 1991 or 1992 would have been about the end of real PCE development.

Well, I prefer the ORIGINAL Bonk's Adventure to any of the NES Mario games, and like the other 2 more than super mario world.

Not because they are technically superior, since they sure aren't.  I just think they are more fun.  I just like the theme more (dinosaurs and tropics!), and the music more.

If there was a caveman dinosaur Mario game for SN....

oh wait, Super Bonk.

I like that more than Super Mario World too.

[Tom]

Probably not. The CDROM2 might not be what make the system great, but it was what made the system unique and kept it alive for so long in a market place with Nintendo. Without the CDROM2 the PCE would have died much sooner since while in theory they could have produced Neo Geo sized HuCards with Gate of Thunder the Tengai Makyo and Dracula X on then...the reality is that there is no f*cking way in hell they would have actually done that. Therefore, it probably would have been the same stream of 8-bit-ish platformers and voice-less RPGs going against Final Fantasy, Yoshi's Island, etc.

While the fanboys here would argue that Bonk's Revenge is better that Super Mario World all day (just as the people on the CDi or Jaguar forums would say that Burn Cycle or Trever McFur hold their own against their competition of the day) the reality is that even a mediocre Mickey Mouse title on Genesis or SNES is lightyears beyond any TG-16 platformer in the eyes of most people. Therefore, 1991 or 1992 would have been about the end of real PCE development.

 There's quite a few wholes in your logic. 1) The PC-Engine was very popular before the CD addon became the dominate format. If they had never brought out the CD addon, of course there would be larger hucards, mappers, addon chips. The FC, which came before the PCE did just this, and the SNES that came out AFTER the PCE, did just this as well. So why wouldn't the PCE? Gate of Thunder (minus the opening/ending cinemas) could fit on a 12megabit cart. DraculaX, most likely 16-18megabit card. The popularity was already there to support it, I don't see why it wouldn't have happened. Regardless of Bonk 2 VS any other platformer and what's "lightyears beyond", the Japanese loved the PCE. First and foremost, that's the biggest negating factor in your logic. There are plenty of just average games on the PCE that the Japanese loved, and on CD format too. So if the same games weren't on CD format, so how the Japanese would fail to like them just as much? Going by your logic, why wasn't the MegaCD the success it was supposed to be?

 I understand the uniqueness, charm, and benefits that the CD format brings to the PCE, but to think there would be this sharp drop off in popularity because of its absence - is kind of.. absurd, really.

 When the Duo was released, it killed all expansion possibilities via that back plane. That include additional video upgrades (more BG layers/sprites), upgraded sound, additional processor, a new cart slot/format (for carts VS cards). Any one of those possibilities could have happened if the CD rom attachment hadn't been released. Not only "could" they have, given the history of the popular games system before and after, it "would" have in any one of those categories.

[turbogrfxfan]

I think they would of pushed the cards more, made em bigger(memory) and it would of been cheaper cause ya didnt have to buy a cd system.  I dunno lol Im just a boy from jersey

[Tatsujin]

DraculaX, most likely 16-18megabit card.

are you really sure about what you're saying here? we all know of how a cart version (on the SFC) would have looked like and how many of the detail where missed or not even realized. and that cart even topped a 18Mbit card in available space.

[Arkhan]

There's quite a few wholes in your logic. 1) The PC-Engine was very popular before the CD addon became the dominate format. If they had never brought out the CD addon, of course there would be larger hucards, mappers, addon chips. The FC, which came before the PCE did just this, and the SNES that came out AFTER the PCE, did just this as well. So why wouldn't the PCE? Gate of Thunder (minus the opening/ending cinemas) could fit on a 12megabit cart. DraculaX, most likely 16-18megabit card. The popularity was already there to support it, I don't see why it wouldn't have happened.

I didn't think there were many holes in what zeta said, if any at all.  Seems sound to me.

There would have probably been a point where the PSG would have been sub-par compared to the pretty high quality stuff coming out of the SNES.  and the Sega genesis as well.  The FM is no laughing matter!  Throw in the Sega CD, and that would nail the sonic-coffin shut.  redbook gave the games one hell of an edge as far as music goes on any of these systems.   It is one of the reasons RPGs on PCE CD are such great games.  The audio is astonishing.

It would have been akin to the competition that occured after Amiga launched w/ Paula blasting out high quality sampled music as opposed to the other computers doing PSG stuff still.... fanboying yourself to one computer or not,  there is no denying that having 4 channels of sampled audio gives you a definitive edge if you are on an Amiga.

and I think the problem with tons of mappers/addons, large hucards, is the cost would have gone up significantly for games.   To make this worth it, some kind of upgraded sound module would have been a must.  The CD-ROM w/ redbook gave it a definite edge along with save ram, and the seemingly infinite storage space of a CD vs what other systems had to try to stuff onto cartridges.  Those later, larger SNES games weren't cheap.  PCE had to make a ubercard to do Street Fighter 2, which was an EARLY SNES title.   Sure if you look back now you can say "well you could add this, and that to the card", but lets face it, none of that crap was cheap!  Chrono Trigger was expensive as hell.

and like Tatsujin said, look how Dracula X on SNES turned out.  Not so great in comparison.

Like I said before, if the CDROM never came out for PCE, I think the SuperGrafx would have been a whole different story.  It would have probably been what it is already, with far more to it since there would be way more development time for it.   It may have turned into the best thing since indoor plumbing instead of a 5 game letdown.

Regardless of Bonk 2 VS any other platformer and what's "lightyears beyond", the Japanese loved the PCE. First and foremost, that's the biggest negating factor in your logic. There are plenty of just average games on the PCE that the Japanese loved, and on CD format too. So if the same games weren't on CD format, so how the Japanese would fail to like them just as much? Going by your logic, why wasn't the MegaCD the success it was supposed to be?

PCE did the smart thing with the CD games and benefited from its basic hardware being better suited for video.  Nice high color stuff...The games focused on being what was good and expected at the time, rather than trying to pretend it was a PC platform with corny FMV games.  Alot of PCE CD games are comparable to Amiga games.     the genesis has its obvious limits... look at all the laughable FMV games...    as far as Sega CD goes, if they had focused more on doing games in the same manner the PCE CD games were done in, things would have faired better for it.  Android Assault is proof that Sega CD could have done plenty of badass arcade shooters.

I understand the uniqueness, charm, and benefits that the CD format brings to the PCE, but to think there would be this sharp drop off in popularity because of its absence - is kind of.. absurd, really.

Absurd?  Says you.  Unless you have a way to dive into an alternate past where the CDROM never existed, its kind of off balance to say someones speculations are downright absurd.

Given the time frame, and the "bit wars" of the era, its entirely possible that popularity would wane.  Much like how most systems decline in popularity when a newer, shinier thing comes around. 

Imagine if PCE had no CD games.  then you saw Cosmic Fantasy and Lunar on Sega CD.  Or Lords of Thunder on Sega CD w/ its ball-thumping soundtrack.  You telling me you wouldn't be like DAMN, and want some of that CD rom action?

When the Duo was released, it killed all expansion possibilities via that back plane. That include additional video upgrades (more BG layers/sprites), upgraded sound, additional processor, a new cart slot/format (for carts VS cards). Any one of those possibilities could have happened if the CD rom attachment hadn't been released. Not only "could" they have, given the history of the popular games system before and after, it "would" have in any one of those categories.

I dunno, some consoles have a history of never getting the things for the expansion ports.  Its possible the back plane would have gone un-touched, aside from the Booster, and then eventually development would have morphed into the supergrafx as a more worthy device than it turned out to be.. 

Rather than add tumor like addons to an existing console, Sega proved its better to just move on.  otherwise what you have on your hands is a bunch of crap clicked on all over the place, and jokes for years to come.   

[awack]

are you really sure about what you're saying here? we all know of how a cart version (on the SFC) would have looked like and how many of the detail where missed or not even realized. and that cart even topped a 18Mbit card in available space.

I remember someone who did a castlevania fighting game hack, gave the size of Rondo at 120mb, over half of which are cutscenes with voice samples, this doesn't include any of the music of course, which is streamed from the CD...DraculaX(snes) is 16mb, that includes the music and a couple of cutscenes with out voice. In the end, 16mb, proved to be insufficient.

for comparison of cart sizes:

Super Castlevania IV- 8mb
Bloodlines- 8mb
Legendary Axe 2- 2mb

[Tom]

I didn't think there were many holes in what zeta said, if any at all.  Seems sound to me.

This - coming from the guy that thought PC-Genjin sounding like PC-Engine was just a coincidence, even when he was given plenty of examples as to why it was more than just that.
 

There would have probably been a point where the PSG would have been sub-par compared to the pretty high quality stuff coming out of the SNES.  and the Sega genesis as well.  The FM is no laughing matter!  Throw in the Sega CD, and that would nail the sonic-coffin shut.  redbook gave the games one hell of an edge as far as music goes on any of these systems.   It is one of the reasons RPGs on PCE CD are such great games.  The audio is astonishing.

 Yes, CD audio is fantastic for RPG and other games. But just take a look at the SFC in Japan. I'd venture to say it has MORE RPGs and more high production value RPGs too. There's no CDDA there, and yet the system was extremely popular. Where were the cinemas and voice acting? No where. And yet the system was extremely popular. And on the other side of the coin, FM setup being superior to the WSG setup of the PCE - yet the MD was a distant third even with it's superior sound to "PSG". And finally the FC, that competed with the PCE and MD - had plenty of audio upgrades via Famicom carts ranging from simple 1 or 2 more channels to PCE like upgrades (even FM chip). Given all that said, do you fail to realize that the "PSG" as you call it wouldn't have been upgraded via cart (or back plane addon)? Hell, even the SMS games had dual options for PSG or FM music (which ever was detected). There's no evidence that NEC/Hudson wouldn't have upgraded the sound if the CD addon never existed. I think on the contrary, by competitive example - they would have.

It would have been akin to the competition that occured after Amiga launched w/ Paula blasting out high quality sampled music as opposed to the other computers doing PSG stuff still.... fanboying yourself to one computer or not,  there is no denying that having 4 channels of sampled audio gives you a definitive edge if you are on an Amiga.

 That's great and all, but the PCE isn't a PC and wasn't dominated by EU politics. I fail to see any relevance that has on the PCE, Japan, and console tech in Japan.

and I think the problem with tons of mappers/addons, large hucards, is the cost would have gone up significantly for games.   To make this worth it, some kind of upgraded sound module would have been a must.  The CD-ROM w/ redbook gave it a definite edge along with save ram, and the seemingly infinite storage space of a CD vs what other systems had to try to stuff onto cartridges.  Those later, larger SNES games weren't cheap.  PCE had to make a ubercard to do Street Fighter 2, which was an EARLY SNES title.   Sure if you look back now you can say "well you could add this, and that to the card", but lets face it, none of that crap was cheap!  Chrono Trigger was expensive as hell.

 If you're talking PCE, then it's SFC. And those "expensive" SFC carts were selling pretty damn good. And do you know how much a mapper costs? Even simple audio upgrades? Very cheap, especially if they become the norm. Why else do you think Nintendo of Japan used the hell out of them? The cost of rom was cheaper by the time SFC was into it's first year, than when the PCE was first released. Mappers are cheap to make (I made one out of a few cheap TTL chips). Not the mention NEC had its OWN fabrication plant - they MADE ram and rom ICs.

and like Tatsujin said, look how Dracula X on SNES turned out.  Not so great in comparison.

 You of all people should understand the concept of "redundancy". Really, now. There are a ton of redundant sprites, tiles, tables, etc in a CD game. No to mention compression. What the CD format offered was incredible (albeit in limited sections), but what was actually taken advantage of? Barely at all by comparison.

Like I said before, if the CDROM never came out for PCE, I think the SuperGrafx would have been a whole different story.  It would have probably been what it is already, with far more to it since there would be way more development time for it.   It may have turned into the best thing since indoor plumbing instead of a 5 game letdown.

 You think the SGX failed because of the CDROM addon!? That's ridiculous. There was a CD addon for the SGX. No developer ever made such a game or even a bi-compatible game. Second, 5 games. 5 WHOLE games. If the system had something like 50-100 games, maybe you'd have a point. But 5 games? Yeah, the CD addon wasn't responsible for the SGX only having 5 games.

PCE did the smart thing with the CD games and benefited from its basic hardware being better suited for video.  Nice high color stuff...The games focused on being what was good and expected at the time, rather than trying to pretend it was a PC platform with corny FMV games.  Alot of PCE CD games are comparable to Amiga games.     the genesis has its obvious limits... look at all the laughable FMV games...    as far as Sega CD goes, if they had focused more on doing games in the same manner the PCE CD games were done in, things would have faired better for it.  Android Assault is proof that Sega CD could have done plenty of badass arcade shooters.

 Again, you're mixing Japanese game system with an American system. The MegaCD had much more than just FMV games, and still did poorly. Even had one of the top famous RPGs - Lunar series. The MegaCD in Japan wasn't trying to be a PC. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. And as far as PCE having "nice high color stuff"? Knowing the extremely large subpalette systems for sprites/tiles, most games were modest with their color counts (CD or hucard).

Absurd?  Says you.  Unless you have a way to dive into an alternate past where the CDROM never existed, its kind of off balance to say someones speculations are downright absurd.

 So you don't think there can be absurd speculation!? How about I say the PC-Engine would have had mini candy canes inside every game box/purchase if the CD addon didn't exist? Speculation can be absurd. When speculating, you still have to apply logic, common sense, past history, near history, and related events. And since this is about the PCE, all has to be in the context of Japan (not the US or other countries) and consoles (not computers).

Given the time frame, and the "bit wars" of the era, its entirely possible that popularity would wane.  Much like how most systems decline in popularity when a newer, shinier thing comes around. 

 Need I remind you the Famicom took on the SMS (which had better graphics and better sound with the FM module), the Megadrive, and even competed with the PCE. Yet it was inferior to all systems, be it minor to major in differences. The MegaCD was technically better than the Megadrive. It was newer and shinier and still never even sold 1:1 (or even 1/8) to the MD fan base.

I dunno, some consoles have a history of never getting the things for the expansion ports.  Its possible the back plane would have gone un-touched, aside from the Booster, and then eventually development would have morphed into the supergrafx as a more worthy device than it turned out to be.. 

Rather than add tumor like addons to an existing console, Sega proved its better to just move on.  otherwise what you have on your hands is a bunch of crap clicked on all over the place, and jokes for years to come.   

 Tumor like addons? The CD unit itself was a tumor like addon. The system card 3.0 as an "addon". The AC was an addon. The six button controller, etc. And given Sega's history, I don't see how they proved anything about moving on. They had the CD addon and the 32x. As far as "external" addons, SFC would have proved the rule. But technically, they had a lot of built in cart addons. Pick your poison.

 Fact: PC-Engine had the most expansion port of any console. It's incredible in the amount of accessibility on that back plane. They could have easily made an SGX style addon instead of a separate system (and then later made an all in one, like the Duo was). To think they went to such lengths to create that impressive back bus without any such plans for serious addon.. is well, ignorant. Given that this was NEC's first system into market, I don't think they expected the base system to live as long as it did. Nor did they think CD format was going to be as popular as it became when the first released it in '88. And like I said before, by releasing the all in one Duo - the solidified any future possible upgrades on that back bus port. The PCE's specs were pretty much set in stone by that point (with the SGX proving that addition sprites and BG layers didn't make a difference to the fanbase).

 The PC-Engine had a popular/pretty strong following. Add that with number of clean/expansive hardware upgrade options that other systems couldn't really to match - it could have went into a number of different directions. We just happen to end up with the ones that were made because of choices by NEC, not necessarily hardware limitations. I think it's foolish and ignorant to look at the base PCE setup that was originally release, and think that's what they would have stuck with though out the system's life if the CD addon did exist. I mean, they had the balls to make the CD addon for the PCE to begin with. 1988, that was pretty hot shit. You think they wouldn't have done something else on that scale if it didn't come out?

[Tom]

are you really sure about what you're saying here? we all know of how a cart version (on the SFC) would have looked like and how many of the detail where missed or not even realized. and that cart even topped a 18Mbit card in available space.

I remember someone who did a castlevania fighting game hack, gave the size of Rondo at 120mb, over half of which are cutscenes with voice samples, this doesn't include any of the music of course, which is streamed from the CD...DraculaX(snes) is 16mb, that includes the music and a couple of cutscenes with out voice. In the end, 16mb, proved to be insufficient.

for comparison of cart sizes:

Super Castlevania IV- 8mb
Bloodlines- 8mb
Legendary Axe 2- 2mb

 The ISO track is only 20megabytes and there is a TON of extra/unused junk between the actual data. But minus the cinemas, each stage is about 192k. That includes redundant tiles and sprites though. I'd say after removal of redundant data, and compression applied - you'd be close to the 18megabit size. Since the SFC version isn't an exact port, you can't know for sure more or less how much the BG detail/tiles took up in comparison. There are also other factors you don't know about on the SFC, like what kinda of compression system they used, how much the sample ram took up for each track (sample based synth), etc.

[Tatsujin]

.

and like Tatsujin said, look how Dracula X on SNES turned out.  Not so great in comparison.

 You of all people should understand the concept of "redundancy". Really, now. There are a ton of redundant sprites, tiles, tables, etc in a CD game. No to mention compression. What the CD format offered was incredible (albeit in limited sections), but what was actually taken advantage of? Barely at all by comparison.

I really won't question your knowledge about the systems capability, which is huge and which I deeply respect. but for me, it is very hard to believe, that the graphics of dracula x would have been possible to fit on a single hucard of only 20Mbits. there are so much BGs, sprites, sprite animations & details in generally in this game, which I have never seen before or after in any other cart based games, beside the world of neo geo or quite later N64/DS games, which counting a much higher numbers of Mbits.

and that's  what makes this game so special and different to SFC and other counterparts.

[Arkhan]

This - coming from the guy that thought PC-Genjin sounding like PC-Engine was just a coincidence, even when he was given plenty of examples as to why it was more than just that.

Hey that’s cool.  Go read that thread again and really process it this time, and while you're at it, leave it there, as it has no relevancy.  Would you like to discuss MML while we are at it?  ^_^.    Anyone who thinks scholarly effort was put into that clever title is a goon.  The words rhyme, ideas flowed, this is the result.      No one gave examples of why it was more than a coincidence that the two words rhyme and one could become a sweet cartoon mascot/character for years to come..

Yes, CD audio is fantastic for RPG and other games. But just take a look at the SFC in Japan. I'd venture to say it has MORE RPGs and more high production value RPGs too. There's no CDDA there, and yet the system was extremely popular. Where were the cinemas and voice acting? No where. And yet the system was extremely popular. And on the other side of the coin, FM setup being superior to the WSG setup of the PCE - yet the MD was a distant third even with it's superior sound to "PSG". And finally the FC, that competed with the PCE and MD - had plenty of audio upgrades via Famicom carts ranging from simple 1 or 2 more channels to PCE like upgrades (even FM chip). Given all that said, do you fail to realize that the "PSG" as you call it wouldn't have been upgraded via cart (or back plane addon)? Hell, even the SMS games had dual options for PSG or FM music (which ever was detected). There's no evidence that NEC/Hudson wouldn't have upgraded the sound if the CD addon never existed. I think on the contrary, by competitive example - they would have.

You can stop wrapping quotes around PSG and acting like it’s not correct and that calling it WSG separates you from the pack..  It’s called that (PSG) in the official documentations and in Develo.  What they say goes and is correct, despite how you may feel about it.  WSG works too, cool, I diggit.  Acting like PSG is incorrect because you say so isn’t.  I do not dig that.

You missed the point.  SFC has very high quality audio WITHOUT requiring CD audio.  That is why the PCE having a CD addon with redbook gave it a definite edge.  Redbook + cdrom storage space! They would have needed a pretty beefy addon sound expansion to compete with the changing times.   Some SFC games have soundtracks that sound like they’re redbook.  It’s stock hardware outclasses the PCEs stock hardware.  Granted, this didn’t always result in the SFC game having the better turnout of the two…. (see comparison thread!)

Without the CD-Audio, a very tricked out sound module of some variety would have been a must.  Something with nice sampling capabilities, possibly FM.  Something to really give it a new sonic depth.

  That's great and all, but the PCE isn't a PC and wasn't dominated by EU politics. I fail to see any relevance that has on the PCE, Japan, and console tech in Japan.

Do you know what the phrasing “akin to” means?  It didn’t seem very complex.  The better audio technology of the [SFC/Redbook vs. console PSG] is much like the [Paula quality audio vs. other computer PSG’s.]  You have to adapt to the current technology to compete well.

Also, we aren't talking strictly EU here.  You know Amiga exists right here in your home country?  So does that Atari stuff.

If you're talking PCE, then it's SFC.

Hoooboy, more semantics (note: not schematics).    Yay.

And those "expensive" SFC carts were selling pretty damn good. And do you know how much a mapper costs? Even simple audio upgrades? Very cheap, especially if they become the norm. Why else do you think Nintendo of Japan used the hell out of them? The cost of rom was cheaper by the time SFC was into it's first year, than when the PCE was first released. Mappers are cheap to make (I made one out of a few cheap TTL chips). Not the mention NEC had its OWN fabrication plant - they MADE ram and rom ICs.

 Adding more things to the card will only increase the cost of said card to the end user.  It doesn’t really matter who’s got what plant, and who’s doing what.  More stuff = more $$ and more time.   They may be “cheap” depending how you look at it, but they certainly aren’t free.   There are business sides to these things that in all honesty, none of us can comment on.  I am sure there are many considerations that need to be taken into account besides “oh its cheap and easy to get these things”.  CD’s had a large storage size and always cost the same.  Once the cdrom hardware was in place, the sky was the limit.  Eventually, making massive hucards was going to look strange, and I would’t be surprised if they stopped fitting in jewel cases at that point.   Considerations for new cards and cases would have had to have been taken into account.  SFC carts benefited from already being pretty spacious.

Yes the expensive SFC carts sold good.  They were expensive nonetheless, and the later runs of games didn’t even get large runs in the first place.    I myself prefer CD games and their cheap price vs. Cartridges.  Like PSX vs. N64.   Those N64 carts were pricey man.  They didn’t even have cartoons on them either. 

Also, sound addons for the backplane aren’t always the best marketing solution even if they are the best technical solution, as it narrows the target audience and possibly alienates those who don’t get the addon and get less of an experience because of it .  At least with CDs, you weren’t in for any surprises.  You have the CDROM setup, you are good to go.  No extra doodad to buy.   There are a lot of factors that could have come in to play.  Not everyone may have wanted to go buy a sound addon to expand the life of their console.  Many may have just shrugged and moved onto something else that was just as good out of box.  Who’s to say, really.  The more addons that start getting added on, the more of an unsure thing you may begin to see for that consoles future…   I am sure the PCE would have had some kind of neat addons, but who is to say it would have been a success in keeping the life of the PCE going?

What looks great on paper doesn’t always work out once put into action.

You of all people should understand the concept of "redundancy". Really, now. There are a ton of redundant sprites, tiles, tables, etc in a CD game. No to mention compression. What the CD format offered was incredible (albeit in limited sections), but what was actually taken advantage of? Barely at all by comparison.

Me of all people?  What does that mean exactly?    For comparisons sake, go look at the PCE vs SFC Dracula X comparisons.  They speak for themselves.  We are talking one specific game here.  Not the all encompassing CD-ROM library and the various tricks and behind the scenes technology.   

You think the SGX failed because of the CDROM addon!? That's ridiculous. There was a CD addon for the SGX. No developer ever made such a game or even a bi-compatible game. Second, 5 games. 5 WHOLE games. If the system had something like 50-100 games, maybe you'd have a point. But 5 games? Yeah, the CD addon wasn't responsible for the SGX only having 5 games.

Its not ridiculous.  Look at it.  No one developed for the SuperGrafx.  Why?  I bet it’s probably because they enjoyed working on the more popularly selling PCE+CD and devoted far more time to that system.  No CD game makes use of the SuperGrafx.   If the CDROM unit had never come out, and never had any time spent in development on it, the Super Grafx probably would have been a lot more refined (better cpu?), and would have offered a lot more to developers since they wouldn’t have had the option of developing CD-ROM games.  You are looking at the super grafx as it stands today.  REMEMBER TOM, we are imagining a world where the CDROM never came out.  History could be very different my man. 

Maybe instead of being a new console like that Sega Neptune plan, it would have just been an add-on for the back to add more capabilities to the system like the 32-X.  It would have been ideal probably since the Neptune never even came out and its still a joke.

If this were the case, SuperGrafx would have been a clear, and definite step up from PCE, rather than a gimpy stepping stone to attempt to tie people over…. If the CD-ROM never came out and instead time was spent developing both the SuperGrafx hardware (either as an addon or a new console) and library.  5 games blows.

Again, you're mixing Japanese game system with an American system. The MegaCD had much more than just FMV games, and still did poorly. Even had one of the top famous RPGs - Lunar series. The MegaCD in Japan wasn't trying to be a PC. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. And as far as PCE having "nice high color stuff"? Knowing the extremely large subpalette systems for sprites/tiles, most games were modest with their color counts (CD or hucard).

More semantics.  You know what I mean.  I’m not mixing anything up.  All the games mentioned were Japanese releases.  Like Lunar, which I totally already mentioned.   FMV games were an interesting idea at the time, but the hardware proved it wasn’t ready for that nonsense.    Its like watchin hires porn on dialup in 640x480 256 color mode.  Sounds great until you do it and are displeased with the result.

As far as ‘high color stuff’:  Replace it with vibrant if it makes it less technical for you.  PCE games have a distinct flair for being very vibrant and colorful.  The technical aspects need not be mentioned really.  Use your eyes.  Go look at all the comparison thread pictures.  There you will find tons of proof of which system is more lush and exciting to the eyes.  My eyes do not see, nor do they give two flying shits about bits and bytes.  They care about what they get to stare at.

  So you don't think there can be absurd speculation!? How about I say the PC-Engine would have had mini candy canes inside every game box/purchase if the CD addon didn't exist? Speculation can be absurd. When speculating, you still have to apply logic, common sense, past history, near history, and related events. And since this is about the PCE, all has to be in the context of Japan (not the US or other countries) and consoles (not computers).

No, I just don’t see the point in pointing out that a speculation is absurd because you don’t agree with it … Especially when it’s within the bounds of reason.   I can apply other regions/computers/consoles as examples if I want to.  It’s why they are called examples.  Use the concept presented within said example and apply it elsewhere.  You keep spouting on and on about logic and various “wholes” in them, but have some problem with applying a clean example across the board.  Should US business practices only use other US businesses as examples to learn from?  Should they ignore successful strategies of other nations? 

Need I remind you the Famicom took on the SMS (which had better graphics and better sound with the FM module), the Megadrive, and even competed with the PCE. Yet it was inferior to all systems, be it minor to major in differences. The MegaCD was technically better than the Megadrive. It was newer and shinier and still never even sold 1:1 (or even 1/8) to the MD fan base.

Sometimes theres a successful underdog.  Doesn’t mean it’s a 100% thing.  Especially when you weigh in the fact that technical aspects didn’t set it apart in a good way.  The game library did, and part of that was Nintendo’s marketing strategy.  Nothing to do with technical aspects.

Tumor like addons? The CD unit itself was a tumor like addon. The system card 3.0 as an "addon". The AC was an addon. The six button controller, etc. And given Sega's history, I don't see how they proved anything about moving on. They had the CD addon and the 32x. As far as "external" addons, SFC would have proved the rule. But technically, they had a lot of built in cart addons. Pick your poison.

They also had the power base converter.  Having all kinds of crap clicked on makes it like tumors.  And yes GIVEN SEGAS HISTORY, they proved why it is best to NOT keep adding crap and move on.   They failed hard because of constantly adding crap to their console instead of cutting the crap and moving on.  The PCE+CD was just that.  a PCE + CD. two nicely sized pieces sitting next to each other.  It wasn't nearly tumor like in comparison to the MegaDrive CD which was far bulkier, and was a whole lotta useless plastic.
 Do you see now?



Or Now?

Fact: PC-Engine had the most expansion port of any console. It's incredible in the amount of accessibility on that back plane. They could have easily made an SGX style addon instead of a separate system (and then later made an all in one, like the Duo was). To think they went to such lengths to create that impressive back bus without any such plans for serious addon.. is well, ignorant. Given that this was NEC's first system into market, I don't think they expected the base system to live as long as it did. Nor did they think CD format was going to be as popular as it became when the first released it in '88. And like I said before, by releasing the all in one Duo - the solidified any future possible upgrades on that back bus port. The PCE's specs were pretty much set in stone by that point (with the SGX proving that addition sprites and BG layers didn't make a difference to the fanbase).

Sure you can call me ignorant if you want.  You of course would be wrong, and need to re-read what I said.  I never said they didn’t have plans for addons.  What I mean is, its often the case that expansion ports are added, and before the console has the chance to use them as planned, they fail or they decide to not go through with things.  Like the PC-FX.   

 

The PC-Engine had a popular/pretty strong following. Add that with number of clean/expansive hardware upgrade options that other systems couldn't really to match - it could have went into a number of different directions. We just happen to end up with the ones that were made because of choices by NEC, not necessarily hardware limitations. I think it's foolish and ignorant to look at the base PCE setup that was originally release, and think that's what they would have stuck with though out the system's life if the CD addon did exist. I mean, they had the balls to make the CD addon for the PCE to begin with. 1988, that was pretty hot shit. You think they wouldn't have done something else on that scale if it didn't come out?

What’s with the constant condescension there guy.  Its not foolish and ignorant to think maybe they would have never gone with the expansions after all and would have just milked the hucard size growth as much as possible.  It’s a possibility that we will never know because we can’t rewrite history.     Its also possible they may have just kept with pretty standard fair HuCard stuff without evening going through the HuCard beefing upping.  The C64 did that and did pretty damn good!

[blueraven]

  Holy Shit. That was longer than my last term paper.

Anyway, as long as we are all theorizing and speculating; I think if there was no CD add-on, it would've eventually looked like the Neo Geo AES carts.

an uber-HU!!!!!!!

 

[Arkhan]

Holy Shit. That was longer than my last term paper.

Anyway, as long as we are all theorizing and speculating; I think if there was no CD add-on, it would've eventually looked like the Neo Geo AES carts.

an uber-HU!!!!!!!

 

Yeah man, uber-hu's would have been massive, making the cutesey little huCard's not so cool.  They would look pregant

Imagine trying to take it with your GT.  You would confuse the card and the console!



I really think they wanted to retain their small form factor cards, and sleek jewel case storage, rather than fall in line with all the shelf whore cartridges.

I almost wonder if that was half the reason they jumped to CD so early on?  Storing CD games is super easy.  They have all kinds of racks and things for CDs.  Not so much for carts. 

[awack]

The ISO track is only 20megabytes and there is a TON of extra/unused junk between the actual data. But minus the cinemas, each stage is about 192k. That includes redundant tiles and sprites though. I'd say after removal of redundant data, and compression applied - you'd be close to the 18megabit size. Since the SFC version isn't an exact port, you can't know for sure more or less how much the BG detail/tiles took up in comparison. There are also other factors you don't know about on the SFC, like what kinda of compression system they used, how much the sample ram took up for each track (sample based synth), etc.

Very true about the sound quality, it ranges from taking up very little space to games such as Tales of Phantasia, with its high quality instrument and voice samples and consequently taking up a very large amount of space.

About the 18megabit estimation, from my understanding, scd games load 192k at a time, take that with the number of loads for each level that are present in Rondo plus adding Maria, puts the total at over 34megabits, this includes redundant sprites.

I don't know anything about the compression system each game uses.

Hey Tom, do you know why 64k of the 256k is held back in super cd games?

tatsujin

there are so much BGs, sprites, sprite animations & details in generally in this game, which I have never seen before or after in any other cart based games, beside the world of neo geo or quite later N64/DS games,

I should finish the Dracxx vs Rondo in detail thing i was always going to do.

[ceti alpha]

hahaha. This thread is great! I always loved the "What If" titles from Marvel. hehe

I think the PCE would have been fine without the CDROM, but it would not have been as popular. This is a little off topic, but I think the lack of CDROM would have probably been a blessing to the TG, overseas. A lot would have depended on more games being brought over from Japan, which is perhaps wishful thinking, but it would have also meant a larger Huey selection by default.

But would the TG/PCE have a beard in this alternate universe?