IF, the PCE never got a CD-ROM add-on..

[Arkhan]

Hmm, maybe!

But !! if they started adding OTHER things, like sound chips, etc.  This would have upped the size considerably for mr. huey..

like the Konami SCC cartridges for MSX.   whole extra sound chip inside those.  A very long one to boot.

[blueraven]

(general)

hhahhahahahhahahhaahhhahahahhahahhahaha

(/general)

[Arkhan]

(general)

hhahhahahahhahahhaahhhahahahhahahhahaha

(/general)

IMPROPER USE OF TAGS.  []s not ()s!

INFIDEL!

[Tom]

yes but to compete with the ever growing carts of the SFC and the like, I imagine the hueys would have gotten quite a bit thicker than even SF2, which is basically a Sys3 sized card.  SF2 was a early SFC title. It was a 16mb cart!  It only got larger from there.

The HuCards wouldn't necessarily have gotten bigger.  The PCE version of SF2' is 20mb, but the hump in the card is empty and only serves as a place for the label; they could have made the HuCard the exact same size as its brethren by using a stick-on label (à la the Arcade Card Duo).  Considering that the bump covers half the rom-fillable area and roughly doubles the thickness of the card, I guesstimate* that with three rom layers at the bump, a game could be twice as big (40mb), which is equal to the largest Genesis game and nearly as big as the largest SNES games (48mb).  Hell, they likely could've made 'em even bigger, as my estimate assumes that 20mb is the max that can fit in a 'normal' sized HuCard, but even if they couldn't, a bumped HuCard could quite possibly hold more gaming goodness than anything that came out on the Genny or SNES, since the Genny has demonstrably less efficient code (in terms of size) and the big SNES games were bloated with samples not game code and graphics.


* - highly accurate and NASA approved

 Correct. It's 20megabit and the "bump" is there for the label only. You don't need to add more "chips" to increase the rom size either. If each of the two 8megabit roms (separate from the 4megabit first one and second mapper chip) had just 1 more address line each, the rom size would totaled 36megabits without adding any extra "chips" - which the that hucard has room for. Every additional address line exponentially raises the size of the rom limit. And considering these are already custom glop top rom setups already, nothing was stopping them from doing it.

 I think it's funny someone can say "yeah, but you don't know for sure. It could have happened totally different". Well duh. Anything can happen, but speculation still requires logic and history for prediction. Given NECs track record with the PCE, there's more proof than not - to say they *would* have upgraded hucards and possible other attachments. Just look was what the put out; the amazing PCE LT, PCE GT, very first CDrom addon, the SGX, portable LCD screen for the PCE, the Duo unit, the whopping 18megabits of RAM via the arcade card. Actually, I'm not going to continue on. I think all one has to do is take a good look at the current past history to make solid assumptions. To see it in any other view point and think NEC would have just "dropped the ball".. well, I can't think of a word that describes that mentality that's not considered insulting.


 And Arkhan: MML engine. Jesus. You still don't understand? And "Develo" isn't the official document. It's a third party book and CD for hobbyist programmers. Official docs have listed the PCE's audio "chip" (you know, the one you think isn't a "real" chip because it's embedded on the same package as the CPU) as PSGWSG and WSG, as well as Japanese PCE sites. You think I made it up? Not to mention your own beloved MSX system has docs referring to the SCC as WSG. It's funny that you complain about my terms, when you don't even know what PSG means in context. In the most generic sense, everything is "PSG" - including the SNES, Amiga, Megadrive, etc. Your own interpretation of terms seems to be all over the place. I choose WSG because it's been used before and it more accurately describes the PCE audio architype that just something generic as "PSG". Anyway I'm sick of having these arguments with you on and off forum (which sucks, because you're a PCE coder. We shouldn't be arguing, we should be PCE coding). I didn't originally respond to you, I responded to Zeta. I'm sure the man can speak his own mind and/or rebut what I had to say. And you love throwing around terms like "homo" and "gay" in speaking about other peoples work or opinions, but you get butt hurt when someone does it to you. So.. chill out or be ignored (here and there).

[Arkhan]

I think it's funny someone can say "yeah, but you don't know for sure. It could have happened totally different". Well duh. Anything can happen, but speculation still requires logic and history for prediction.

Yes, anything can happen.  That is precisely why saying one person’s opinion or thought is absurd/wrong is a bit uncool.  Everyone has given pretty sound thoughts.  None are outside the bounds of reason/possibility.

I think all one has to do is take a good look at the current past history to make solid assumptions. To see it in any other view point and think NEC would have just "dropped the ball".. well, I can't think of a word that describes that mentality that's not considered insulting.

Lol, Aren't you the one who griped about NEC being stupid for not putting FM in the CD-ROM unit? 
Companies can make mistakes.  Maybe NEC would have just nixed the PCE when the CD-ROM never came out and went full on into the SuperGrafx territory.  Sound's like it could have been possible to me.    It might have even been pretty awesome, because then maybe the SuperGrafx-CD would have come out, with some reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally kickass CD games on top of the SuperGrafx having way better hardware.

And Arkhan: MML engine. Jesus. You still don't understand?

No, I understand completely, and have from the beginning, dude.  You were just too busy being technical and throwing terminology around to notice.  You are the one who said all of that stuff in *filename*.inc was MML, and argued the point quite adamantly when I said it wasn’t.  It's not MML and never will be, no matter what kind of semantics you would like to argue.  its COMPILED MML.  The MML gets turned INTO that.  That’s all. 

And "Develo" isn't the official document. It's a third party book and CD for hobbyist programmers. Official docs have listed the PCE's audio "chip" (you know, the one you think isn't a "real" chip because it's embedded on the same package as the CPU) as PSGWSG and WSG, as well as Japanese PCE sites.

Read what I have said again.  Hu7 sure ain't Develo, and you know I have more than one document in use here..   Though, they both refer to it as PSG, as do some other documents.  I never said a damn thing about WSG being incorrect.  In fact, the manual for Squirrel calls it WSG.  You say tomato, I say tomato.  I use the two interchangeably depending on what flies out of my mouth/fingers first.  Maybe you would realize all of this if you weren't so busy asserting what YOU know and use as being the only correct way, and rejecting anything else by saying it is wrong.  This isn't the case, and it would do you well to realize that.   For what it is worth, I ran the chip topic past some hardware people who could talk circles around any one of us PCE people, and they all came to the conclusion that neither is wrong and that it would be a giant waste of time to start debating it.  So, shame on you for "feeling the need to call me out for being wrong and absurd".    I never said calling it a chip was wrong, all I said was that I personally don't see it as a chip for obvious reasons.  Never came down on you for saying it is indeed a chip.   So, that is your bad for starting up an argument over a moot point that didn’t really need any addressing.   

You think I made it up? Not to mention your own beloved MSX system has docs referring to the SCC as WSG. It's funny that you complain about my terms, when you don't even know what PSG means in context. In the most generic sense, everything is "PSG" - including the SNES, Amiga, Megadrive, etc. Your own interpretation of terms seems to be all over the place.

I’m not complaining about your terms.  No sir!  I'm complaining about you emphasizing that YOU are right, and I am wrong, when in reality, we are BOTH right.    I recall when you decided to adopt using WSG instead of PSG, and it was actually quite recently.  Before then you were saying PSG also.  I believe it was Chris Covell who used it on here possibly, and it prompted you to announce that you were using that instead.     I was there when you announced it, and lots of triumphant luls were had.  What happened?
And there you go again saying I don't know what things mean.  That is why you keep finding yourself in arguments.  You have different usage of terms sometimes that is sometimes a little more technical and literal.  I often use generalized or “accepted” terminology.  They are BOTH right and acceptable.  It is common knowledge that the chips in MSX, and Spectrum for example are PSGs (The AY-3-8910).    Programmable Sound Generators.      They’re all over the place man!

I never applied a generic PSG term over every console/computer sound hardware.  Dunno where that came from, or where it’s headed.
You brought up chip slang, so lets bring up some more chip slang.  Anything chippy that isn’t FM is often referred to as PSG in a general sense.  SCC is referred to mostly as simply SCC.  Sometimes (rarely) WSG.  SID is SID.  They are all perfectly reasonable to be referred to as some sort of “PSG”…. And again, things like FM and Paula are not.  Hence the [console PSG v redbook/sampled audio] == [computer psg vs sampled audio].  If you think these generalized classifications are ‘wrong and absurd’, you had better get cracking on informing a shit load of people man.  Or you could realize that arguing semantic preferences is sort of retarded, and accomplishes nothing.   Especially if you know what the person is talking about.  Its like arguing over calling it soda or pop.  Same thing, move on.

 

I choose WSG because it's been used before and it more accurately describes the PCE audio architype that just something generic as "PSG".

So has PSG.  It’s been used.  Even by yourself!  Hell, there is even user- made documents calling it PSG.  They both have been used. That is why arguing over technicalities is preeeeeetty lurpy.  Noones winning a medal here.

Anyway I'm sick of having these arguments with you on and off forum (which sucks, because you're a PCE coder. We shouldn't be arguing, we should be PCE coding).

Agreed.  You should think about that the next time you want to argue mundane details, or call someone out without realizing that both your view and their view are right, and also the next time you are about to drag IRC discussions onto a forum.

And you love throwing around terms like "homo" and "gay" in speaking about other peoples work or opinions, but you get butt hurt when someone does it to you. So.. chill out or be ignored (here and there).

Whose work are we talking about here?  I don’t go around insulting other people in the PCE scenes work.  And if you are trying to play the holier than thou card with the “homo” and “gay” thing, please, we are all guilty of that stuff.   To deny that would be veryyyyy dopey.   I also haven’t insulted anyone’s opinion that I am aware of here.  I also don’t initiate arguments over stupid matters of preference with fellow sceners just because I “felt the need to”, or feel the need to drag crap from IRC onto a forum where it doesn’t serve much purpose other than to turn an otherwise decent discussion into this mess.   I seem to recall you doing the arguing initiating (since you yourself said you felt the need to), and insulting MY work by calling a specific use of something stupid while also failing to realize your issue stemmed from your use of a term not agreeing with my use of a term that has multiple meanings/types/uses which I even pointed out to you all the while without actually seeing what it is, or how it is put together, and then bringing it here to boot.  So I believe YOU need to chill out.   Not me.   When have I ever just up and went HEY TOM: YOURE DOIN IT WRONG AND ABSURDLY.  Or started pissing in your cheerios because you used a term differently than me.

Gonna have to go with a Never have on that one.

[Keranu]

Its like arguing over calling it soda or pop.

POP!

[Tom]

No, I understand completely, and have from the beginning, dude.  You were just too busy being technical and throwing terminology around to notice.  You are the one who said all of that stuff in *filename*.inc was MML, and argued the point quite adamantly when I said it wasn’t.  It's not MML and never will be, no matter what kind of semantics you would like to argue.  its COMPILED MML.  The MML gets turned INTO that.  That’s all. 

 I said it was in "pseudo" MML and that it was an MML engine. It wasn't in BINARY format. There were text mnemonics and such.  Even MooZ's forum I have it listed as such. You're the one that was upset that I even referred to it like that. "MML a is language - blah blah blah". MML compiles to a binary, but it still needs to be "interpreted" by an MML or "command string" capable engine. So if you understood everything from the beginning (in which you gave no indication that you did), then why did you sit there and argue with me for like half an hour? Either you wanted the argument then or you're lying now. The whole point, in case you forgot, was that you could convert the "pseudo" MML song format of Air Zonk over to your MML parser syntax (which you never did). And you bring up this in relevance with your DP forum post about Bonk? Where's the connection?

I use the two interchangeably depending on what flies out of my mouth/fingers first.

 So I've noticed.

 For what it is worth, I ran the chip topic past some hardware people who could talk circles around any one of us PCE people, and they all came to the conclusion that neither is wrong and that it would be a giant waste of time to start debating it.

 You did, huh? Do your buddies happen to know what ASICs are by chance? Never mind the fact that even though it's embedded in the same package as the CPU, the same identical chip is in its own standalone pin package on the PC-FX. No draw the parallels draw the parallels between the model 1 Genesis to the very last version of the model 2 Genesis, to that. Get back to me when the dots start to connect.

I never applied a generic PSG term over every console/computer sound hardware.

 
 I was implying that you might as well, since you don't seem to understand the term in context, its history, or its relative technical aspects. PSG, from the 2600, 5200, A400/A800, SG-1000, Coleco, Lynx, SMS, Speccy, BBC micro, ibm PCjr, Apple II, Amstrad CPCs, VIC-20, old Tandys, TI-99/4A, Channel F, Sharp, MSX 1, NES, GB/GBC, Atari ST, and countless arcades of the early 80's. They all have something in common, a few restrictive simple, simple, simple fixed waveform outputs. And almost all square because that was the cheapest and loudest method (and some with no duty cycle settings). SID is definitely in its own bracket, regardless of how rough it can/does sound. The PCE audio design is unique and different compared to those PSG setups.

 Amiga's audio has been called "Wavetable Synthesis" since the very early days. But this is incorrect. It's Sample Based Synthesis. Wavetable synth is actually something different, but lots of people still use the old incorrect terminology.

You brought up chip slang, so lets bring up some more chip slang.  Anything chippy that isn’t FM is often referred to as PSG in a general sense.\

 
 This. Your slang. Has no technical merit or meaning or such. It just boils down to it being "chippy". You know, people often say the SNES sound is "fuzzy". Should we all refer to it as Super FSG (Filtered Sound Generation). But sometimes, it sounds like a Mini mOther f*cking Orchestra in there. We could call it Super MOFO... at those specific times >_> 

 Funny you should mention "chippy". Sounds quite a bit similar to "chiptune", which includes Genesis FM and SNES SPC. You know, by popular opinion.

 PSG refers to .... ahh f*ck it. PSG. PC-Engine Sound Generation. :-"

[Tatsujin]

Its like arguing over calling it soda or pop.

POP!

WB

[Arkhan]

I said it was in "pseudo" MML and that it was an MML engine. It wasn't in BINARY format. There were text mnemonics and such.  Even MooZ's forum I have it listed as such. You're the one that was upset that I even referred to it like that. "MML a is language - blah blah blah". MML compiles to a binary, but it still needs to be "interpreted" by an MML or "command string" capable engine. So if you understood everything from the beginning (in which you gave no indication that you did), then why did you sit there and argue with me for like half an hour? Either you wanted the argument then or you're lying now.

Duder, you never said pseudo MML.  You said it was MML.  Huge difference!  When I showed you and said what actual MML is, you said yours is close enough, that you didn't need the history lesson, and that people can adapt, since MML is just a command string setup.    The engine even has misleading source files referencing MML, but nowhere in the engine is there an ounce of ACTUAL MML.  I even asked "whats got MML" and you said "Azasel does!".  As it stands, Azasel has what happens AFTER MML.   MML is a very well defined, and very standardized language. If something doesn't support THAT language and its rules, then it has no business being called MML.   

You did, huh? Do your buddies happen to know what ASICs are by chance? Never mind the fact that even though it's embedded i..etc..

Yep, and considering one is employed as an engineer in this sort of field and is older than either of us with considerably more experience and education to back it up.... .   Some people just dont feel the need to argue these fussy little details, and enter the realm of "splitting hairs". Whats the phrase? "Mocky nicky" or something like that.  Shrug off the difference of opinion on usage.

I was implying that you might as well, since you don't seem to understand the term in context, its history, or its relative technical aspects. PSG, from the 2600, 5200, ...... The PCE audio design is unique and different compared to those PSG setups.

Yes some PSGs are different than others, but when you really get right the hell down to it, they ARE all PSGs in the broadest sense, even if some are a bit more programmable/featurefull than others.  Like how all cars are called cars even though some cars are definitely better than others.     The PCE has a ferarri in comparison.  You can nix the "you dont understand it" shenanigans.  I think my usage background from C64, MSX, and PCE is enough proof that I understand these things. 

Amiga's audio has been called "Wavetable Synthesis" since the very early days. But this is incorrect. It's Sample Based Synthesis. Wavetable synth is actually something different, but lots of people still use the old incorrect terminology.

Yes.  Some PC soundcards are called "wavetable synthesis" also, and are basically the same setups as Paula.
 

This. Your slang. Has no technical merit or meaning or such. It just boils down to it being "chippy". You know, people often say the SNES sound is "fuzzy". Should we all refer to it as Super FSG (Filtered Sound Generation). But sometimes, it sounds like a Mini mOther f*cking Orchestra in there. We could call it Super MOFO... at those specific times >_> 

Alot of people refer to it as such.  Basically everyone. Not just me, so, technical merit/meaning (as dictated by you), doesn't really come into play.   I would bank the SFC (you mixed them up!) in with the likes of Amiga before I put it with PSGs anyways

Funny you should mention "chippy". Sounds quite a bit similar to "chiptune", which includes Genesis FM and SNES SPC. You know, by popular opinion.

Yeah, I could agree with that.  It sort of goes hand in hand with ^^^^.  Also, chiptune really does end up applying to anything that even SOUNDS chippy.  Some of that is done in windows with trackers and ripped samples from various hardware.   its become the general-purpose term.

PSG refers to .... ahh f*ck it. PSG. PC-Engine Sound Generation. :-"

and this.  Sounds OK to me.

[awack]

tatsujin I really won't question your knowledge about the systems capability, which is huge and which I deeply respect. but for me, it is very hard to believe, that the graphics of dracula x would have been possible to fit on a single hucard of only 20Mbits. there are so much BGs, sprites, sprite animations & details in generally in this game, which I have never seen before or after in any other cart based games, beside the world of neo geo or quite later N64/DS games, which counting a much higher numbers of Mbits.

To put it into perspective, we can compare it with the best games in its category.

Shinobi III, Hagane, SCIV, Bloodlines, Dracxx, skyblazer, Contra HC, Contra III, etc. This group ranges from about 5 too 14 megabits in size.

At 192k per load(I'm not sure what 64k of the 256k total is used for) times the number of loads in Rondo, gives a total of 34megabits, you have to take into account that some things are reloaded each time, but still, you can see why it craps all over its rivals in terms of the things you brought up.



 

[Necromancer]

Anything can happen, but speculation still requires logic and history for prediction.

Crazy talk, pure and simple.  Logic's for suckers!

I didn't originally respond to you, I responded to Zeta.

Yet Arkhan seems to be having a go at a different windmill anyway, since he goes on and on about all the things that the PCE would have needed to stay competitive, when Zeta conversely argued that the PCE (sans CD) could've soldiered on for at least eight f*cking years while never exceeding the 'slightly better than a Famicom game' quality found in many of the early releases.  Oh yeah, you're a real douche for labeling such a belief as absurd; it makes perfect sense, for why would NEC try to improve their product over such a long period of time when they could stay the course and keep losing money (unless you believe the highly plausible notion that such lackluster games would sell well enough to turn a profit)?

Yes, anything can happen.  That is precisely why saying one person’s opinion or thought is absurd/wrong is a bit uncool.

Thank you, cool police. 

I think if the CD-ROM add-on never came out, NEC would've developed Super-Duper-HuCards powered by miniature bees that you'd have to periodically feed with special honey pellets.  These cards would've been slightly smaller than the micro SD cards of today and would've added all sorts of capabilities (including, but not limited to, 8K resolution, 24 bit color, infinite background layers, and a built in pez dispenser).  Now don't anyone say the preceding is wrong or absurd; that wouldn't be cool.

[Arkhan]

Crazy talk, pure and simple.  Logic's for suckers!

MMm.  I like suckers.

Yet Arkhan seems to be having a go at a different windmill anyway, since he goes on and on about all the things that the PCE would have needed to stay competitive,

yeah .   If there was no CD w/ the fancy-audio, they certainly would have had to do something audio wise, especially after SFC came out.   I still think the SuperGrafx would have actually been something cooler if the CD unit never arrived

when Zeta conversely argued that the PCE (sans CD) could've soldiered on for at least eight f*cking years while never exceeding the 'slightly better than a Famicom game' quality found in many of the early releases. 

Hey, like tom said, alot of mediocre PCE games were widely liked in Japan.  Kinda like how Japan liked Hydlide.

Oh yeah, you're a real douche for labeling such a belief as absurd;

Not douchey, just sort of unneeded in a discussion where everyone is at least giving sound reasons for their particular thought on what would have happened...  calling it absurd is like a quick/dirty copout way of going  "That sucks, you're an idiot".
 

Thank you, cool police. 

Hey dude, I invented cool in the 6th grade.

I think if the CD-ROM add-on never came out, NEC would've developed Super-Duper-HuCards powered by miniature bees that you'd have to periodically feed with special honey pellets.  These cards would've been slightly smaller than the micro SD cards of today and would've added all sorts of capabilities (including, but not limited to, 8K resolution, 24 bit color, infinite background layers, and a built in pez dispenser).  Now don't anyone say the preceding is wrong or absurd; that wouldn't be cool.

Oh, and maybe then it would be the SuperDUPER Grafx instead!  That's what would have happened. 

[Necromancer]

Hey, like tom said, alot of mediocre PCE games were widely liked in Japan.  Kinda like how Japan liked Hydlide.

And those mediocre titles are what maintained its profitability, right?  It makes no logical sense to think that NEC would do absolutely nothing to improve the PCE and/or its games, thereby increasing market share and profits.

Not douchey, just sort of unneeded in a discussion where everyone is at least giving sound reasons for their particular thought on what would have happened... 

There is no 'everyone'; Tom was responding to Zeta, who actually gave very little by way of reasoning behind his opinion.  In fact, the CD's uniqueness was the sole factor stated; everything else was just Zeta's opinion of what would happen, without a single logical argument to back it up.

calling it absurd is like a quick/dirty copout way of going  "That sucks, you're an idiot".

Before calling Zeta's line of reasoning absurd, Tom gave a whole paragraph full of facts and comparative examples to make his case.  How exactly is that a quick and dirty cop out?

[Arkhan]

And those mediocre titles are what maintained its profitability, right?  It makes no logical sense to think that NEC would do absolutely nothing to improve the PCE and/or its games, thereby increasing market share and profits.

Of course they would have.  I just think there would have eventually been a breaking point where they move to new hardware entirely instead of adding and adding... like the SuperGrafx.  remove the CD hardware development from the timeframe.  It was in 88, the SG was in 89.  If there was no CD hardware development, I bet alot more time would have went into the SuperGrafx and it would have been like going from FC to SFC rather than PCE to PCE w/ slightly more oomph. 

I imagine what would happen if a bunch of games wanted better sound and had to make a chip on the card, so tons of cards would keep having them on it if there was no sound expansion unit.  Would be pretty odd.

There is no 'everyone'; Tom was responding to Zeta, who actually gave very little by way of reasoning behind his opinion.  In fact, the CD's uniqueness was the sole factor stated; everything else was just Zeta's opinion of what would happen, without a single logical argument to back it up.

I think his reasoning and opinion kind of speaks for itself, and you can fill in the gaps yourself.   

Before calling Zeta's line of reasoning absurd, Tom gave a whole paragraph full of facts and comparative examples to make his case.  How exactly is that a quick and dirty cop out?

generally, declaring something absurd is like an added nail in a coffin in case your actual argument is either nonexistent, isn't very good or is a simple difference of opinion.  this seems like a few differences of opinions, and calling any of them absurd, chock full o facts or not, isn't accomplishing anything.  Everything thats been said by everyone (excluding the candy canes and bees), is at least POSSIBLE, and realistic.  Its a bit unfair / goony to go "well, your speculation on an alternate past reality is just absurd, and this is why"

and fwiw, I think using the word absurd, is absurd.  and thats just my opinion, followed by my subsequent replies about it.   

id much rather prefer to just discuss the crap instead of deciding whats absurd and whos doing what and is better at knowing whatever the hell it is were talking about

[SignOfZeta]

WTF, this is going crazy. I blame Tom.

Something that may or may not have been pointed out by now (I'm in a hurry and can't read all of these book-length, tit-for-tat bickering posts) is that the very question is shaky as best. The CDROM2 isn't something that NEC just dreamed up one day as a token add-on. Its pretty obvious that it was part of the whole idea from (almost) the very beginning. Its impossible to imagine a CDROM2-less PC Engine because it pretty much always had one. It wasn't long after the release of the system that HuCards became a "plan B" medium that only the most mainstream titles were released on (Momotaro, Bomberman, Street Fighter) with all the "real" games being sold as CDROMs to the people who could afford/justify the expense of a CDROM enabled system.

Would DVDs have become as popular as they did if they never added AC-3 sound? Its very hard to say since only the earliest players/discs lack it, and %99.999 of all DVD users didn't even know of the existence of plain stereo DVDs. To most of us, they always had DD/DTS sound. Likewise, the PC Engine always had a CDROM.