Author Topic: Now this is some complete BS right here  (Read 974 times)

Arkhan

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2010, 07:07:23 PM »
Well, as much as this whole topic annoys me, I'll just let it be.  There are some things you'll just never understand until you're there.
What sort of actual shoot-stuff action did you see?  From what I have been told, being over there and being over there in a firefight, are two different things. 

I would also figure that unless you were up in one of those birds, doing what they're doing, you dont fully understand either.    You dont get to wave your armed forces service around as a "I know more than everyone here" card, :)

as far as anyone but the ones involved goes, its all speculation.


Quote
Then GTFO.

ah typical narrowminded response..

are YOU happy with America today?  Are you just lovin the f*cked economy, the blatant ignorance and racism, the lazy fatasses and the Wal Mart generation?

You are aware that our forefathers even said, if you're unhappy with the current state of things, revolt?  Change it?

or, should everyone who thinks things are in the shitter just pack up and get out?   

if everyone with a clue took your advice and GTFO'd instead of striving for changes,  you'd be sitting around stroking your dick on the internet with the cast of COPs, running rampant.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 07:09:29 PM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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oldskool

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2010, 07:26:51 PM »
Interesting debate here guys, but let's try not to make any personal shots at each other.

Here is an interesting perspective of things - many of you may have already watched it, for those that have not, take the time to watch through it.  It's quite a conversational and controversial piece.

Zeitgeist - The Movie
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197#

Second Zeitgeist is a very interesting perspective of money and the government, and a new better alternate society.

Zeitgeist: Addendum
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#

Check out this guy, he has an interesting way to explain his emotions.   :shock:

Made in U.S.A vs. Made in China
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 07:53:10 PM by oldskool »

Arkhan

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2010, 07:34:21 PM »
according to roy, that man needs to gtfo

I on the otherhand, think hes pretty correct.   Things need to change.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 07:43:39 PM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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RoyVegas

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2010, 07:53:58 PM »
I would also figure that unless you were up in one of those birds, doing what they're doing, you dont fully understand either.    You dont get to wave your armed forces service around as a "I know more than everyone here" card, :)

I have been in a UH-60 over Iraq, so don't tell me you would know better than me or I don't fully understand.  I'm not waving it, I'm stating I do for a fact know better than you.

ah typical narrowminded response..

are YOU happy with America today?  Are you just lovin the f*cked economy, the blatant ignorance and racism, the lazy fatasses and the Wal Mart generation?

You are aware that our forefathers even said, if you're unhappy with the current state of things, revolt?  Change it?

or, should everyone who thinks things are in the shitter just pack up and get out?   

if everyone with a clue took your advice and GTFO'd instead of striving for changes,  you'd be sitting around stroking your dick on the internet with the cast of COPs, running rampant.

There's a big f*cking difference in saying you aren't happy with the state of things in the country and saying you're not proud to be an American.  I'm saying if your not happy with the state of things, then sure, make changes just like you said.  I can't argue with that, that's what makes our country great.  But what you said was:
I'm not proud to be an American.  not anymore. 

Well why stay if it's so horrible?
All is well. :)

SignOfZeta

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2010, 08:00:20 PM »
Despite what the TV commercials and recruiters say, soldiers are not for delivering food, or healing the sick, or building bridges. They Army doesn't train you for a some high tech career or whatever. Soldiers, on all sides, are trained to kill, at any time, anyone they have been indoctrinated to kill, and do exactly what their superiors say. They are the most numerous and lowest payed of assassins. If Obama/Bush/Clinton/Reagan/Carter/whatever gave the order to invade Belgium or Brazil, or wherever, they'd be there killing on as wide a scale as possible as soon as possible. Its their job.

If you expect soldiers do anything else you are f*cking stupid.

I will say though that my reaction time is better than any soldiers. Twenty years ago, when we blew the f*ck out of Iraq the first time, when those lying predatory f*ck recruiters were pestering me in high school, trying to tell me that if I didn't join the service I'd just end up a loser, I told them to go f*ck themselves. Never signed the deal. Never shaved my head. Never learned to pick on the fat kid in Basic. Never used the term "camel jockey" in a non-ironic way. Never accidentally shot my bunk mate. Never blew up a school. Never went crazy because of it. Never killed myself or my family. Never helped spend $2 billion a day in tax money.

Some people are slower than that.

SignOfZeta

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2010, 08:01:48 PM »
Quote from: RoyVegas
Well why stay if it's so horrible?

What is there to be proud of? My parents were American. They f*cked. So what? I'm only proud of things I can take credit for...and things that are worth taking credit for.

Arkhan

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2010, 08:15:28 PM »
I have been in a UH-60 over Iraq, so don't tell me you would know better than me or I don't fully understand.  I'm not waving it, I'm stating I do for a fact know better than you.
So you have been in a birdy.  8)  Was it during a fire fight?  Was there shrapnel, bullets, screaming, blood, explosions, .... or were you just in one as it flew somewhere in a relatively safe/secure area.    There IS a difference between being over there and actually BEING over there.    I mean, you can fly in a black hawk and never leave base camp!  I really hope you aren't the guy on the horn in that video goin CMON LET US SHOOT, CMON CMON.


Quote
There's a big f*cking difference in saying you aren't happy with the state of things in the country and saying you're not proud to be an American.  I'm saying if your not happy with the state of things, then sure, make changes just like you said.  I can't argue with that, that's what makes our country great. 

Well why stay if it's so horrible?

I'm not proud to be associated with this crap.  Its unfortunate really.  Our super power days are over.  The country is now a joke.   They like to make us think its the best place to live ever.  It isn't anymore.  Its not the worst, but it sure aint the best .   

Why stay?  Well, its mighty rough to pack up and GTFO at the age of 22 when you're in the middle of doing shit.  If things dont improve by the time im done, maybe I will pack on up and go somewhere else.   

Telling anyone to GTFO because theyre not proud of this crap is pretty arrogant.   are you proud? You thrilled about all this ??

I will say though that my reaction time is better than any soldiers. Twenty years ago, when we blew the f*ck out of Iraq the first time, when those lying predatory f*ck recruiters were pestering me in high school, trying to tell me that if I didn't join the service I'd just end up a loser, I told them to go f*ck themselves. Never signed the deal. Never shaved my head. Never learned to pick on the fat kid in Basic. Never used the term "camel jockey" in a non-ironic way. Never accidentally shot my bunk mate. Never blew up a school. Never went crazy because of it. Never killed myself or my family. Never helped spend $2 billion a day in tax money.

Some people are slower than that.
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[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Joe Redifer

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2010, 08:36:31 PM »
Arkhan, you are misdirecting your feelings and not being rational.  I think you are looking for "I am not proud of our military" instead of "I'm not proud to be an American".  The military does not represent all that is America. Shooting up civies is not something to be proud of, but that doesn't suddenly make me want to leave the country or hate everything it stands for.  But since you absolutely hate being an American, that gives you a convenient excuse to not put forth any effort whatsoever to try and change any wrongs you perceive with the country, and I am not talking solely about the military. 

As for me, I don't hate being an American.  I am certainly not embarrassed by it.  I am embarrassed by what Bush has done and what Obama is doing, but not by being an actual American.  What's next, should I be ashamed of being white?  Or Straight? Straight, white males were likely the ones who did this over in Iraq.  You are straight and white, right?  And male?  You should be ashamed.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 08:38:33 PM by Joe Redifer »

Arkhan

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2010, 09:11:03 PM »
Arkhan, you are misdirecting your feelings and not being rational.  I think you are looking for "I am not proud of our military" instead of "I'm not proud to be an American".  The military does not represent all that is America. Shooting up civies is not something to be proud of, but that doesn't suddenly make me want to leave the country or hate everything it stands for.  But since you absolutely hate being an American, that gives you a convenient excuse to not put forth any effort whatsoever to try and change any wrongs you perceive with the country, and I am not talking solely about the military. 

no I didn't dig America prior to this.  It's been a pretty jacked place for awhile, and there are so many things screwed up that no, I don't feel too proud anymore.  being in school right now gives me a pretty clear view of the unfortunate path things are heading.    Soon these idiots will be adults, and voting, and being part of the big picture, and making it a mess.

as for putting forth no effort via excuses: Wrong.  :)  You shouldn't assume these things.   

I just hope more people hop on the bandwagon before its too late
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 09:13:29 PM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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guyjin

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2010, 02:27:53 AM »
a post over at boingboing that expresses how I feel better than I actually can:

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/04/05/wikileaks-more-backg.html#comments
#14:
Quote
As a Marine myself, and an enlisted veteran, I'd like to point out a few things to all the knee-jerk anti-military types floating about.

First of all, you are correct in saying that war requires a certain type of desensitization. It is, in many respects, a terrible thing. Killing has an awful effect on the human psyche, as does any program designed to reduce or delay this effect.

But war-- killing other real people with real guns-- is a necessary evil if good people or (is such a thing possible?) good nation-states are to survive. There will always be someone, barring a truly effective world government, that can and will decide to take what is not rightfully theirs through military means.

Either they can be stopped, or you and what you love can die. And often to be stopped, they must be killed. Someone has to do it. It's an awful job. But there is honor in doing it. Killing is evil, but that does not mean that all people that do it are evil. (There's a philosophical point to be made here about evil acts, evil people, and necessary evils-- but I've not the time.)

I don't defend the people portrayed in this video. I don't know anything about the situation, and neither do you. I don't know enough to prosecute or defend them in the moral sense; nor do I have an idea how much bravado is sadism and how much is something much sadder and maybe necessary to do what they do.

Tangentially, military people don't choose their own wars, nor often their own targets. (In the sense of those who actually pull the trigger.) Your democratic government does. Both political parties do. Your Congress does.

And that is a fundamental fact and blessing of democracy. Military dictatorships-- without the serious divide between military and political authority-- tend to be...well, you know what they tend to be.

But to protect against it, you remove from your military men and women the freedom of choice. They enlist under a contract, which is negated only if they object to all wars, to defend their nation as their President and Congress see fit. So if you're going to hate and lament, do it for the political types who don't have to bleed or watch those they love do so. They're the ones who get you in these messes, these wars of agression.

The rest of us are just down on the ground trying to do the right thing. Be patriots. Be good to all those we can be-- that includes foreign nationals like Iraqis. But we have a hard job and it's not always clear what's right and what's wrong.
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bust3dstr8

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2010, 02:45:05 AM »
Quote
I don't know about you, but it seems like the people on the ground are aware of the helicopters and don't feel threatened.  If they were threatened or hostile, I don't think they'd be standing around so calmly out in the open.       Unless you think they're trained to just chill out on corners when they're under pressure.

They are just untrained and don't realize the range of the gun is a mile or two.
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esteban

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2010, 05:06:03 AM »
Our military/police are trained to relentlessly suppress/incapacitate/destroy. War is hell.

The video, in this context, is hardly surprising.

I am surprised, however, when folks are so quick to shrug their shoulders, rationalize and justify military actions (be they on the micro scale, like this incident with the AP reporters, or be they macro, like the overall US military policy in Afghanistan/Iraq).


Over the last decade+, I have been so utterly drained, emotionally and physically, from working to change things (on the local level, from union-building to educating folks on US foreign/domestic policy), that I dread even posting here. It's always ugly. Nonetheless, my two cents (in technicolor!):

For the folks who can "understand" why trained, professional soldiers fired upon the van in the video: Wow. Regardless of how you feel about the initial "engagement", firing upon the van was sterile, high-tech brutality. Period. Rationalize all you want, it simply strengthens my point about brutality. Perhaps we see things differently, though?  Unarmed civilians trying to save a wounded, dying man by carrying him to a van = threat. Yes! I see it now. By all means, I grant you permission to open fire.

The helicopter gunship (and/or troops on the ground) are in immediate danger of having a dying man being tossed at them.

One day, I hope we live in a world where even jaded individuals will recognize brutality when they see it. There is no need to "GTFO", since, as you are keenly aware, the very existence of America is founded upon  political freedoms to fight inequality and injustice, in an effort to make this country (and maybe even the world!) a better place. "GTFO" is, if anything, one of the most UNpatriotic and antiAmerican sentiments a person could harbor, especially in times like these.

The sad thing is that the only reason this particular story has some traction is because it involved AP reporters, who are  usually regarded, at times, as bonafide "humans". Had this simply involved Iraqi reporters, or even worse, locals in the community, we would simply know them as "insurgents".

And, to guyjin's post from the veteran: We, as vigilant, patriotic Americans, must scrutinize the actions of both the policy-makers AND those who enforce that policy. To do anything less is criminal.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 05:08:10 AM by esteban »
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guyjin

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2010, 05:13:38 AM »
And, to guyjin's post from the veteran: We, as vigilant, patriotic Americans, must scrutinize the actions of both the policy-makers AND those who enforce that policy. To do anything less is criminal.

We should. But remember that the people making the decisions and the people acting on them are human beings. Human beings make mistakes, especially in high-pressure situations where they think (their) lives are in danger. If I'm lucky, I will never be in such a situation, and then have to explain myself.
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Necromancer

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2010, 05:25:09 AM »
It's obvious that the gunners really believed these folks had weapons...  The mistake is tragic for sure, but I *can* see how such things can happen in battle.  The thing that was completely unnecessary was the haughty attitude of the gunners after the engagement.

This, pretty much.  Shit happens and these guys made deplorable mistakes on threat assessment, but it's just asinine to throw the entire military under the bus and say that this is their modus operandi.



Arkhan: you're so full of fail, it's hard to know where to begin.  [-(

What sort of actual shoot-stuff action did you see?  From what I have been told, being over there and being over there in a firefight, are two different things. 

And being told what it's like and watching a video of what happened is lightyears away from both of those things.  Whether or not Roy saw action is irrelevant, for if you don't believe that serving in the military gives one a better insight into such a situation, then 'blatantly ignorant' is a suitable label for yourself.

Why stay?  Well, its mighty rough to pack up and GTFO at the age of 22 when you're in the middle of doing shit.  If things dont improve by the time im done, maybe I will pack on up and go somewhere else.

Prediction: twenty years from now you'll still be crying over the state of union but won't yet have exhausted your supply of excuses for staying.

I will say though that my reaction time is better than any soldiers. Twenty years ago, when we blew the f*ck out of Iraq the first time, when those lying predatory f*ck recruiters were pestering me in high school, trying to tell me that if I didn't join the service I'd just end up a loser, I told them to go f*ck themselves. Never signed the deal. Never shaved my head. Never learned to pick on the fat kid in Basic. Never used the term "camel jockey" in a non-ironic way. Never accidentally shot my bunk mate. Never blew up a school. Never went crazy because of it. Never killed myself or my family. Never helped spend $2 billion a day in tax money.

Some people are slower than that.
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f*ck yeah!  Let's label everyone that joins the military as predatory, racist f*ck-ups, mock those who suffer from PTSD or similar mental troubles, and blame the grunts on the ground for the expense, for it surely isn't our duly elected representatives that set their budgets and approve funding.  :roll:

no I didn't dig America prior to this.  It's been a pretty jacked place for awhile, and there are so many things screwed up that no, I don't feel too proud anymore.  being in school right now gives me a pretty clear view of the unfortunate path things are heading.    Soon these idiots will be adults, and voting, and being part of the big picture, and making it a mess.

So everyone currently in school is an idiot, eh?  I guess that includes you, unless your ego is so gargantuan that you believe that you're the sole member of your generation with a level head and capable of critical thinking.  Either way - you fail.

as for putting forth no effort via excuses: Wrong.  :)  You shouldn't assume these things.

So what are you doing, outside of bitching and moaning on the internet (or at the student union/beatnik coffee shop/etc.)?



They are just untrained and don't realize the range of the gun is a mile or two.

Not so fun fact: from when they started shooting (video starts shaking) and when you see the rounds hit, nearly two seconds have passed, which would make them nearly a mile out for a 7.62mm or .50 cal.
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RoyVegas

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Re: Now this is some complete BS right here
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2010, 06:55:39 AM »
So you have been in a birdy.  8)  Was it during a fire fight?  Was there shrapnel, bullets, screaming, blood, explosions, .... or were you just in one as it flew somewhere in a relatively safe/secure area. 

No, it was not during a fire fight however the heli was armed to the teeth and I guarantee if we saw people with what appeared to be weapons we would have killed them.  Relatively safe and secure area?  Yeah, because flying anywhere over IRAQ is safe.  Even when we flew in initially on the C-130 they had to make a rediculous decent to avoid any gunfire.


There IS a difference between being over there and actually BEING over there.

Thanks for pointing this out, as you would know from your vast knowedge spending time in your computer chair.

I really hope you aren't the guy on the horn in that video goin CMON LET US SHOOT, CMON CMON.

If I thought they had weapons and could possibly kill us?  You're damn right I would.




I guess what really bothers me is the sacrifices military members have to make in the course of doing their jobs.  We did things for a sense of higher purpose and because that's what we thought was right or were told we had to do.  During my time in I had to make many sacrifices which I can never take back.  Sacrifices that have changed my life and altered the lives of those around me (immediate family). 

You have to understand that my general attitude has to do with the fact that no matter how small my contributions may have been by my service, I feel I played my part.  When there are people that make it seem like military members aren't doing anything productive other than other there taking target practice on innocent people, it's just bullshit.

Do any of us know what these soldiers orders were?  Maybe there were reports of armed people in that area that had fired on troops.  Maybe their orders were to find the threat and neutralize it.  Maybe they saw or knew something about the situation that the video doesn't show.  These videos don't always paint the whole picture.  Did the Rodney King video show Rodney when he was attacking the officers?  No, the video turned on once the officers had beat him down to the ground.  Don't get me wrong here, Rodney took a hell of an ass beating which shouldn't have happened.  My point is that in the case of these videos there are alot of circumstances around them that we have no idea about which can totally change the picture of what truely happened.




« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 07:18:55 AM by RoyVegas »
All is well. :)