Author Topic: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games  (Read 1211 times)

Rockabilly Paradise

  • Guest
i have noticed that hardly any of the cd-rom2 or super cd-rom games that i have played have any parallax scrolling compared to the hu card games which seem to have a ton. can any tec-savy pc-engine owners out there explain this?

Colossus1574

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 338
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2010, 07:40:44 AM »
uh....from a tech point of view....i don't see any reason why a hucard can out perform a CDrom game (aside from the loadtimes). Hucards top up at 16 or 20 with StreetFighter2 being the big one, and CDrom games measuring in at 500-600megs? The only thing could be some companys got lazy and wasted all the memory on a CD, and just plugged it with nice cut scenes and music, where the HUcards they had to use some smart programming to really pump out the most they can get out of a HU, IMO.   :-k

That being said, there's a ton of CDrom games using parralax scrolling, I just can't name them all off the top of my head. But the expert peeps on this forum will be able to rattle the titles off!

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2010, 08:33:21 AM »
i have noticed that hardly any of the cd-rom2 or super cd-rom games that i have played have any parallax scrolling compared to the hu card games which seem to have a ton. can any tec-savy pc-engine owners out there explain this?

It's just the selection of games you've played. There are many CD games that have backgrounds which are good to go for Air Zonk style parallax, which requires no extra graphics (unless they want the odd overlap using non animating sprites)... but I guess the developers were just clueless on how to do it.

The type of overlapping backgrounds that the PCE doesn't have hardware support for the way that the MD and SFC do, is usually achieved with animated background tiles (Ninja Spirit stages 1 & 2).

The problem overall was development tools. Across the different PCE formats, it seems that every developer only knew how to do some tricks, but very few games do most. Now every game doesn't need to cram in special effects just for the sake of it, but I'm talking about games where it stands out that a particular effect should be used... and often the same game will have something else spectacular going on elsewhere that seems less common than the missing effect.

In theory, if all developers knew how to do everything, you'd likely see more animated tile effects in CD games than HuCards, because overall space wouldn't be an issue. Based on my own experience having played most PCE games, I think it's safe to say that there are more CD games than HuCards that have parallax. But many parallax friendly games aren't well known to most people (neither is the PC Engine for that matter :wink:).


uh....from a tech point of view....i don't see any reason why a hucard can out perform a CDrom game (aside from the loadtimes). Hucards top up at 16 or 20 with StreetFighter2 being the big one, and CDrom games measuring in at 500-600megs? The only thing could be some companys got lazy and wasted all the memory on a CD, and just plugged it with nice cut scenes and music, where the HUcards they had to use some smart programming to really pump out the most they can get out of a HU, IMO.   :-k

HuCards actually have a huge advantage over CDs and the only limitation HuCards have is economic. CD games are technically limited by the amount of space they get to fill up in a single load. A Super CD can use 4 times as much as a CD2 game and an Arcade Card game can use 36 times as much as a CD2 game. A HuCard is limitless. Bank switching (or something) was required when the memory size limit was reached, same as MD & SFC carts, but in theory you could have a 1TB HuCard that can access any part of the rom at any time (although still limited by the hardware bottlenecks that also affect CD games).

Street Fighter II' is the perfect example. A straight port of the SFC model couldn't be done on Super CD within it's 2 meg space. I believe that SFII home ports needed the sprite frames to be uncompressed to run fast enough or something. An Arcade Card port could've looked "arcade perfect" for the time and could almost fit the entire SFII' HuCard within a single load.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 08:44:30 AM by Black Tiger »
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

rag-time4

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2010, 08:40:41 AM »
i have noticed that hardly any of the cd-rom2 or super cd-rom games that i have played have any parallax scrolling compared to the hu card games which seem to have a ton. can any tec-savy pc-engine owners out there explain this?

It's just the selection of games you've played. There are many CD games that have backgrounds which are good to go for Air Zonk style parallax, which requires no extra graphics (unless they want the odd overlap using non animating sprites)... but I guess the developers were just clueless on how to do it.

The type of overlapping backgrounds that the PCE doesn't have hardware support for the way that the MD and SFC do, is usually achieved with animated background tiles (Ninja Spirit stages 1 & 2).

The problem overall was development tools. Across the different PCE formats, it seems that every developer only knew how to do some tricks, but very few games do most. Now every game doesn't need to cram in special effects just for the sake of it, but I'm talking about games where it stands out that a particular effect should be used... and often the same game will have something else spectacular going on elsewhere that seems less common than the missing effect.

In theory, if all developers knew how to do everything, you'd likely see more animated tile effects in CD games than HuCards, because overall space wouldn't be an issue. Based on my own experience having played most PCE games, I think it's safe to say that there are more CD games than HuCards that have parallax. But many parallax friendly games aren't well known to most people (neither is the PC Engine for that matter :wink:).
Any quick recommendations for CD games with parralax?

Gate of Thunder comes to mind for me (SCD)

Rockabilly Paradise

  • Guest
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2010, 08:57:12 AM »
i guess it's just the games i've played after all.. can anyone give some good examples of parallax scrolling-heavy games for super cd-rom or arcade card? see, me and parallax go way back... it was the very first thing to really "wow" me about the pc engine... dead moon anyone? i was just wondering, thanks to everyone for answering my question. much appreciation. 

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2010, 09:19:45 AM »
Any quick recommendations for CD games with parralax?

Gate of Thunder comes to mind for me (SCD)

The best obvious example of the type of layer over layer backgrounds that the PCE shouldn't be able to do at all is Super Darius/Darius Plus. And it actually does all the overlapping just with sprites. The games are known for flicker, but it's mainly just the bosses. Magical Chase manages to pull off some cool parallax that seem to go beyond even what animated tiles could do (with some shadow/transparecy effects to boot).

Some other CD games with parallax-

Ai Cho Aniki
Cho Aniki
Cotton
Download 2
Dracula X
Godzilla
Kaze Kiri
Kiaiden 00
Legend of Xanadu
Lords of Thunder
Macross 2036
Macross Eternal Love Song
Metamor Jupitor (cool shaded warping tunnel effects)
Rayxanber II
Shapeshifter
Spriggan Mark 2
Star Parodier
Super Darius II
Terraforming
Valis IV
Vasteel
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 09:47:12 AM by Black Tiger »
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

Colossus1574

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 338
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 09:38:07 AM »
wow TIGER, thanks for awesome explanation on CD vs. HU. Something new everytime on this forum, haha.

Didnt SHOCKMAN 3/SHIBIMIMAN 3 have alot of p.scrolling?

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2010, 09:46:17 AM »
wow TIGER, thanks for awesome explanation on CD vs. HU. Something new everytime on this forum, haha.

Didnt SHOCKMAN 3/SHIBIMIMAN 3 have alot of p.scrolling?

Yeah, that's another good one I didn't mention, although I don't think there's anything very special after the first stage (and the game is only like four stages long).
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

awack

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 692
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2010, 11:49:20 AM »
BlackTiger mentioned some good ones, the third level in Macross is excellent, beautiful reflective line scrolling ground and a four layer overlapping sprite Background, Xanadu is great through out. Shape shifter is also good, that one uses dynamic tiles instead of sprites i think, along with Gradius 2, think parodius(pce) parallax scrolling but better..foreground tile also moves up and down, not just right to left.

Quote
Street Fighter II' is the perfect example. A straight port of the SFC model couldn't be done on Super CD within it's 2 meg space. I believe that SFII home ports needed the sprite frames to be uncompressed to run fast enough or something. An Arcade Card port could've looked "arcade perfect" for the time and could almost fit the entire SFII' HuCard within a single load.

Outrun would be impossible as well, unless you break up the action. One on one fighting shouldn't be the Super CD strongest genre, even though Godzilla(20Mb snes) and Flashhiders(snes 24Mb) were as good if not better on SuperCd, action and shooters are, take for example Gate of thunder, there are 7 loads at one and a half or two Mb (192KB or 256KB) each load, for Winds of Thunder its 15 loads and Rondo its 24 loads.

Unless its an unoptimized port from Hu card to Cd, there isn't a single thing that a hu card does better than a CD SCD ACD whether its animation, detail, color count, snd fx,special fx or music.








Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2010, 12:04:39 PM »
BlackTiger mentioned some good ones, the third level in Macross is excellent, beautiful reflective line scrolling ground and a four layer overlapping sprite Background, Xanadu is great through out. Shape shifter is also good, that one uses dynamic tiles instead of sprites i think, along with Gradius 2, think parodius(pce) parallax scrolling but better..foreground tile also moves up and down, not just right to left.

Shapeshifter appears to use dynamic tiles for the background and h-sync(?)/Air Zonk style strips for the ground in the forest.


Quote
Outrun would be impossible as well, unless you break up the action. One on one fighting shouldn't be the Super CD strongest genre, even though Godzilla(20Mb snes) and Flashhiders(snes 24Mb) were as good if not better on SuperCd, action and shooters are, take for example Gate of thunder, there are 7 loads at one and a half or two Mb (192KB or 256KB) each load, for Winds of Thunder its 15 loads and Rondo its 24 loads.

Street fighting games don't have to be very graphic intensive to look and play great. SFII just set a new standard by cramming so much unique detail into a couple screens combined with detailed characters animated at 12fps. If they'd simplified the backgrounds the way they cut the sprite animation, it might've been close for Super CD, but the SNES World Warrior had already set the standard. It also wouldn't have looked like the same game. I'm glad we got a few Arcade Card games that show off some of the PC Engine's potential.


Quote
Unless its an unoptimized port from Hu card to Cd, there isn't a single thing that a hu card does better than a CD SCD ACD whether its animation, detail, color count, snd fx,special fx or music.

HuCards have the potential to offer hardware sound upgrades and storing game saves directly to the cart, even though no one bothered (Populous came close :wink:).
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

Rockabilly Paradise

  • Guest
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2010, 01:35:19 PM »
BlackTiger mentioned some good ones, the third level in Macross is excellent, beautiful reflective line scrolling ground and a four layer overlapping sprite Background, Xanadu is great through out. Shape shifter is also good, that one uses dynamic tiles instead of sprites i think, along with Gradius 2, think parodius(pce) parallax scrolling but better..foreground tile also moves up and down, not just right to left.

Shapeshifter appears to use dynamic tiles for the background and h-sync(?)/Air Zonk style strips for the ground in the forest.


Quote
Outrun would be impossible as well, unless you break up the action. One on one fighting shouldn't be the Super CD strongest genre, even though Godzilla(20Mb snes) and Flashhiders(snes 24Mb) were as good if not better on SuperCd, action and shooters are, take for example Gate of thunder, there are 7 loads at one and a half or two Mb (192KB or 256KB) each load, for Winds of Thunder its 15 loads and Rondo its 24 loads.

Street fighting games don't have to be very graphic intensive to look and play great. SFII just set a new standard by cramming so much unique detail into a couple screens combined with detailed characters animated at 12fps. If they'd simplified the backgrounds the way they cut the sprite animation, it might've been close for Super CD, but the SNES World Warrior had already set the standard. It also wouldn't have looked like the same game. I'm glad we got a few Arcade Card games that show off some of the PC Engine's potential.


Quote
Unless its an unoptimized port from Hu card to Cd, there isn't a single thing that a hu card does better than a CD SCD ACD whether its animation, detail, color count, snd fx,special fx or music.

HuCards have the potential to offer hardware sound upgrades and storing game saves directly to the cart, even though no one bothered (Populous came close :wink:).

i just got done playing through the first 4 bosses of sapphire... i'm speechless

ParanoiaDragon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4619
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2010, 03:00:10 AM »
Shadow of the Beast, similar effects as used in Shapeshifter.

awack

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 692
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2010, 11:57:35 AM »
Quote
Street fighting games don't have to be very graphic intensive to look and play great. SFII just set a new standard by cramming so much unique detail into a couple screens combined with detailed characters animated at 12fps. If they'd simplified the backgrounds the way they cut the sprite animation, it might've been close for Super CD, but the SNES World Warrior had already set the standard. It also wouldn't have looked like the same game. I'm glad we got a few Arcade Card games that show off some of the PC Engine's potential.

Oh yea, for the ACD, the neo geo fighter, for the Supercd i have no hesitation in saying that Asuka shows off that format the best, fast, good animation, nice explosions and combos, a highly stylized fighter for the time(exaggerated moves and such) and better than Streetfighter 2 in my oppinion, but somewhat simple backgrounds.


Quote
i just got done playing through the first 4 bosses of sapphire... I'm speechless

A very memory and CPU intensive game.



Quote
Shadow of the Beast, similar effects as used in Shapeshifter.

Yep, the only difference, is that it uses sprites instead of tiles/dynamic tiles, impressive since there is very little flicker.

Tatsujin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12311
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2010, 01:29:53 PM »
Yeah, just play some GoT, WoT or Drac X and you know how well done tricky parallax on the pce could be done, using every possible register in the lil'box :)
www.pcedaisakusen.net
the home of your individual PC Engine collection!!
PCE Games coundown: 690/737 (47 to go or 93.6% clear)
PCE Shmups countdown: 111/111 (all clear!!)
Sega does what Nintendon't, but only NEC does better than both together!^^

Necromancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21374
Re: a serious question about parallax scrolling in super cd-rom games
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2010, 01:43:03 PM »
Among the games listed by Black Tiger, Vasteel, Download 2, and Terraforming are especially impressive, considering they're plain-jane CD games.
U.S. Collection: 98% complete    157/161 titles