Author Topic: Sapphire  (Read 1581 times)

Michael Helgeson

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Sapphire
« on: July 22, 2005, 04:16:24 PM »
Just wanted to make it aware to people who didnt get a copy of Sapphire from taht guy in Germany,he can be trusted,he is a greta guy.I wrote him for my friend,Quoth,and he sold Quoth 2 copies,which arrived fine this week.I think the guy is still selling them on ebay,anyway,just wanted to put my 2 cents in on that,the guy deserves kudos for being such a helpful and great guy.

zborgerd

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Re: Sapphire
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2005, 05:10:41 PM »
Quote from: "Michael Helgeson"
Just wanted to make it aware to people who didnt get a copy of Sapphire from taht guy in Germany,he can be trusted,he is a greta guy.I wrote him for my friend,Quoth,and he sold Quoth 2 copies,which arrived fine this week.I think the guy is still selling them on ebay,anyway,just wanted to put my 2 cents in on that,the guy deserves kudos for being such a helpful and great guy.


I got mine very quickly and was very pleased with it.  It's pretty obvious that it's a fairly modern reproduction, but the effort involved in making look as original as possible was quite exceptional.  I think it's well worth the price tag, and the seller is a nice guy as well.

msb_1971

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Mine was fast and in perfect shape.
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2005, 12:44:32 AM »
It may be a copy... But I don't care it looks great plays perfect and is an all around bad ass game!

If you have always wanted it like I have get em while their hot. You will be pleased.

Thanks Fudoh!

MSB_1971

Michael Helgeson

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Sapphire
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2005, 12:08:17 AM »
I looked at the 2 my friend got in.Id have to say this,I think they are second run.Not bootleg.The quality is too high.No bootlegger company of any kind would go to that kind of extreme.Believe me,Ive seen some high quality bootlegs in my time,and still have plenty of 3DO bootlegs laying about,taht are very close to looking near real.But the Sapphires cover about every area,even down to the way Pc Engine Spine cards are sut with a curve on the top back side of it.Bootleggers dont take that kind of time,put that kind of effort into anything.The whole point of bootlegging is to make the most money with the least effort as possible.I see nothing in the Sapphires to tell me they are fakes.Like I said,too much effort,too much pride would have to have been reached/put into them, for that kind of quality to come out without actually being a real release.If they were going to do Sapphire like that,they would have done others as well.

cozzie

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Sapphire
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2005, 06:58:13 AM »
Believe me these are not second run there is no such thing they where printed in Germany!!
The seals are terrible and if you look closely there are a lot of minute differences.
By choosing to copy Sapphire they chose one of the rarest games and in doing so they hoped to make an awefull lot of money!!!

Michael Helgeson

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Sapphire
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2005, 08:41:10 AM »
How do you know they were printed in Germany.I thought the seller said he picked them up in Japan while on a trip or something.Not only that,but why would bootleggers in Germany care about bootlegging for a system that maybe less then 2 percent of the population over there even own?

Keranu

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Sapphire
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2005, 09:11:43 AM »
Quote from: "cozzie"
By choosing to copy Sapphire they chose one of the rarest games and in doing so they hoped to make an awefull lot of money!!!

I don't know what side to truely believe because they are both convincing in their own ways, even though making bootlegs makes a little more sense. However it doesn't look like this person was trying to make an awful lot of money for only selling them for $60. Who the hell knows what the true story is though...
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

pixeljunkie

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Sapphire
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2005, 10:07:33 AM »
blatant copies. But cool to have for the gamer. No way in hell they are second run. If you see it side by side with original its obvious. I bought one from him and its great for a copy. Must-have for people who aren't fanatical enough to grab an original.

The CD's even have the name of the company who pressed them...from switzerland I think...its on the inner ring.

cozzie

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Sapphire
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2005, 10:33:10 AM »
There you go says it all really!!! Second run!!!Indeed.

Michael Helgeson

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Sapphire
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2005, 11:40:17 AM »
This was taken from the guys auction he held:


"Sapphire is a legendary 2D shoot’em up released for the PC Engine Arcade Card addon towards the end of the PC Engine’s lifespan. The game pushes the PCE’s hardware to it’s absolute limits. The orchestral score is fantastic and the graphics gorgeous - even outperforming many of the later on released 32-bit shoot’em ups.

While not this hard to find (if looking in the right places), Sapphire has always been extremely expensive. Released at a normal price tag in the early 90s, the price skyrocketed shortly after the game' release. Around 1999 or 2000 some shops in Tokyo started to offer “alternative” prints of the game - most often not telling (or knowing) what they were actually selling. Every 2nd copy you'll today in Tokyo's stores is this “alternative” version of the game.

The origins of this “alternative” version of the game are unclear. Some shops in Tokyo claim Hudson issued a 2nd print later on to keep prices down, but the print run didn't hit the stores in the regular way. When Hudson cleared all their warehouses years later the games hit the stores (similar to the Circus Lido situation with Amazon). This isn't confirmed though.

A copy of this version was once forwarded to Hudson Japan and Hudson was not able to confirm that there was anything wrong with it, although it's doubtable that they invested much time to do an archive check on their 1st release. Given the overall quality and perfection, it seems obvious that is was produced "in house" (or at least it was produced in Japan by people who had access to the original materials). Without owning the first run of the game and the possibility to do a side-by-side comparison, it’s nearly impossible to tell a difference.

I bought some copies of this one in Tokyo quite some time ago, not knowing of any “alternative” version and therefore paying a lot of money for those (nowhere near US$500, but still a lot more than what I ask now). From my judgement, I’d say that every 2nd copy of this game sold on Ebay or other internet platforms refers to this version of the game - of course most often without telling and asking hell of a price. Videogame stores around the world stock and offer this version, sometimes at a reasonable price tag, but most times overpriced claiming it's the 1st run of the game."
Also,as Id still hold onto the possibilty of it being a second run,I will explain why.
1.If it was a second run,made at around 1999,requested by Hudson,they could have used any pressing plant they would have wanted to use,doesnt matter what country.Hudson themselves may not have had the press equipment still in operation to do it,but used another factory who did.Beggers cant be choosers,and if Hudson didnt want to downgrade their presser equipment to make the correct knickle stamper needed,they could have found a factory who still had it in full swing,and Switz,Germany,UK,alot of those old press plants were still in full swing untill 2001 running on the old equipment and software.
2.The same thing was very common in the LD industry.Sony would use others to do their LDs besides their plant in the USA.They would use a plant,DADC, in Austria,for instance.Other LD pressings could have the first run made in the US,like the Aliens Special Edition.and have the second run manufactured at another plant,which held true for Aliens Special Edition second run,made in Japan,as I have both press runs,have exaustivly checked every mint mark on all the lds in the sets,both sides,all disc,and there are changes,differences,in the package,color,everything.Nothing major,but nonetheless,noticable.Does this make my second run of Aliens a "bootleg" because it was not manufatured by the US Mitsubishi plant?No,just that the second run was handled out of the country because either the US plant didnt have the time/resorces,or older equipment available to do it anymore,as Mitsubishi did eventually do a major overhaul into their LD manufacturing plant in the mid-90ies.Also Evil Dead,the last special print run of it,was made in the UK,on gold,because there was no more plants in the US running the old LD pressing equipment or software anymore,other then the company used to do the last print run of Dragons Lair.

I guess I just keep my mind open about these things more,because I have seen it doen before.I just do not honestly believe its a bootleg.Liek I said,it looks too good.No bootlegger would put taht kind of quality into it to make it up to snuff.Yea your seeing slight print differences,but that is normal in print runs.Do you honestly think they can stick to the same manufacture method,even down to the ink used on a the booklet,if they used a different pressing plant? Nope,its impossible.They can get close,as you have seen,but not the same,as to why its called"second print run"And if it was bootlegged,like that,dont you think you would see many more up for sale everywhere then what you see now?What bootlegger would put all that effort into a game like that and maybe only make 100 pressings?Not going to happen.Almost any pressing plant that is worth a damn wont do any order below a 1000.That would mean that there would have to be at the least 800 copies working,given there could have been bad pressings made,sitting in Germany waiting to be bought.If that was the case,dont you think you would see more of them up for sale from German ebay sellers?
In Japan,where Im sure this"second" print run was made for and sent to back in 99,where they first appeared,Im sure the majority of them still sit,in happy gamers loving hands,or in used shops,waiting for a buyer.Just liek the guy from Germany who got them while on the trip there as he said.Hudson cant confirm or deny the second prints,why?
1.it was a print run made late in the day,back in 99,and doesnt make up for the fact they didnt make enough for everyone in the original release.
So they wont deny having them made,as Im sure they did,in hopes of making up for lost money,and making up to fans.
2.Why confirm it being a real copy?While it would not hurt them badly rep wise or anything,Im sure they took some pride in knowing that people ended up loving the game so much that they are willing to pay up to $500.00 US for it.So confirming the second run at this point in time shoots the value down drastically of the first run.This is in a country that has enough problems getting rid of used software as is in their game shops,and where companies sometimes perfer to not have their software sold in those shops to begin with.
3.What did you expect them to do for a second print run?Print a big huge "BEST OF SERIES" on them like the Saturn and Playstation titles that had second printruns? They would'nt have dared do this,as there never was anything released on the PC Engine like that.It would have been totally out of character for Hudson.
4.The Pc Engine,while some of you may forget,was Hudsons baby more then it was NEC's.Sapphire was one of the best shooters they had made,and back in the late 90ies up till now still one of the most hyped about shooters for the system.So its extremely logical for Hudson to have made a second print of it,kind of like saying goodbye,to their first system/product that made them alot of money.
Incase you didnt know,Hudson was started by a couple of brothers,who were very poor,making small electronics for sale.They slowly expanded and game wise they first started doiung small titles for the Famicom and some comp stuff,before designing the PC Engine hardware.The Pc Engine gave the company life it would have otherwise never have had.The 2 brothers are pretty nice guy sfrom what I have read about,and very novel,fond of things like  good memories of things that brought them joy.
The number by the Hudson Bee logo,its from a steam engine that the brothers used to watch as a children,that after making alot of money off the Pc Engine,they found and restored.This is why I mettion the thing about the character of Hudson.It just seems to much like them,and is just so damn possible taht tehy did in fact order a second run of the game to be made,to make up for the first small run,to make up to fans somehow,or to say good bye to their brainchild that brought them success.
They had to have loved that system to death,as their best games were made for it.So just run all this around in your head for a bit.Keep in mind,Hudson wont confrim or deny the second run,and look at all the possible factors into it before dissmissing it and labeling it as a fake.No owner of a first run will want to admit that there could be a possible offical second run,because of the fact they paid so much for their first run copy.No game store will either,who holds and sells the first run on any kind of basis what so ever,as it would mean less profit.
Or hey,just think Im nutts,and dont know shit,and be happy thinking/assuming its a bootleg.It wont matter to me,I dont own it,I didnt want it,as I dont like the game much myself.My friend bought 2 of them so he could keep one sealed.This is the only reason I even took a look at them to begin with.
BTW,sorry the post is so long,but any of you who read any of mine know,they can get to be that way,without spaces,commas,or paragraph breaks,lol.
BTW,Keranu,incase you didnt get my message on the other post,your cd drive shell is shipped as of today,by first class,and they said it should reach you by Fri,or Sat.I will email you the delivery confirmation number later tonite.
Take care!!!

pixeljunkie

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Sapphire
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2005, 12:07:52 PM »
i've read his auctions and talk to him via emailo a number of times. He even sent me photos of it side by side with an original. It would be REALLY cool if it were a "second run". But its not. Its a bootleg, and a bootleg that is fetching anywhere from $50-$75!!!! Bootlegs historically don't get much more than $10 no matter what they are. So even as a bootleg it is probably quite profitable for whoever produced these. The printed pieces are obviously taken from a scan and not original plates [the line screen pattern is a dead giveaway]. That alone makes it obvious. Why wouldn't hudson just reprint it with the original plates...it would be much cheaper for them to do that rather than make a "copy" for a second run. Its silly to hope these are legit, I'm sorry.

zborgerd

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Sapphire
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2005, 02:42:53 PM »
Here's a trick.

Open 5 random PCE CD cases.  Examine the disks.  Notice something about the way the center ring looks?  They are all the same.

Now open Sapphire.  There is no way in hell it's an original or "second printing".  It's certainly cool, and is an awesome replication attempt, but the quality isn'y *that good* in comparison to the original.

Also note the branding on the center ring.  It's a European CDROM fab company.

Keranu

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Sapphire
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2005, 03:11:06 PM »
Michael, I enjoyed reading your views on how it could be a second prints, and thanks for informing me about the PCE CD lid!
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Michael Helgeson

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Sapphire
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2005, 07:27:44 PM »
I wont think one way or the other positivly untill Hudson says one way or the other wether they are or not.In the end,only Hudson could confirm this.Why not email them?We could all get together and bombard them with emails inquiring about it?
It might get us somewhere.

Keranu

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Sapphire
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2005, 07:33:30 PM »
I'll email them.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).