Author Topic: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.  (Read 9471 times)

awack

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #90 on: February 03, 2011, 11:05:33 PM »
Just to give a few examples of the strength of each system.

SNES and mode 7...when mode 7 is done right, theres a part in batman & robin that involves a blimp and a scaling BG...video below, fast forward to 7 minutes.


Lets not forget about snes games with special chips like Star fox.

The same goes for transparencies, check out the laser weapon in super turrican 2.

For the genesis i would out the adventures of batman & robin(another batman game :-k) above ranger x.
The falling platform in stage two and the mad hatter boss fight are awesome. Ill go ahead and mention FMV games like silpheed for the sega cd.

For the pc engine, its all about sprite animation, what do you get when you add  up all the frames of animation from Act Raiser 2, Demons Crest, Act Raiser 1 and Castlevania 4, roughly the same amount of frames that are in Rondo...oh, it doesn't stop there, the sprites themselves are larger in rondo.


Rondo top   SCIV BOTTOM, the large rock golem is actually a BG tile/mode 7.


The effects/special attacks are also larger.

Rondo top    Demons crest bottom.






I ripped Sapphire, it completely trumps Donkey Kong Country, there are other examples, but ill stop.

The pce has a good combination of speed and color, it handles shooter remarkebly well, but is it better than the snes or genesis, even though its my favorite system, i say no, both of those systems have a better rounded library in my oppinion...such as platform shooters and side scrolling brawlers.

SuperDeadite

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #91 on: February 04, 2011, 12:24:19 AM »
I love how the SNES is supposedly the "most powerful" but it's by far the slowest of the three.

Yeah, the CPU clock speed is pathetic, which is (I assume) why the shooter selection is so terrible on SNES,

Small selection yes, but what it does have is a small selection of incredibly good shmups, which in my opinion in quality beats the much larger selection of Megadrive shmups.

Axelay
Area 88 (Capcom's finest 2D shmup)
R-Type III: Third Lightning (best R-Type ever, simply amazing)
Super Aleste (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie (one of the finest shmups ever, tons of sprites on screen with no slowdown, trounces over the average PCE & Saturn Macross games)
Flying Hero
Sonic Wings
Gokujou Parodius, jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius and Parodius Da
Cotton 100%
Pop 'n Twinbee


Wait people LIKE Cotton 100%?  It's a rape of the series in my opinion.  AWFUL AWFUL game.
The rest of those are mediocre ports of arcade games, for the most point. Sure it's got
a few ok shooters.  But even the MSX1 is a better shooter system then the SNES. The SNES excels at
games with long levels that repeat graphics over and over.  It's a wonderful system for people who
enjoy seeing the same 3 sprites on a loop that goes on for 5 minutes.

I have an SFC, it has a few games I like, but the majority of the library are just Famicom games with
annoyingly long levels.  Even Super Aleste has those retarded bonus stages, and you have to replay
stage 1 again before the final stage.  Pointless filler, ugh.
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Otaking

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2011, 01:20:07 AM »
I love how the SNES is supposedly the "most powerful" but it's by far the slowest of the three.

Yeah, the CPU clock speed is pathetic, which is (I assume) why the shooter selection is so terrible on SNES,

Small selection yes, but what it does have is a small selection of incredibly good shmups, which in my opinion in quality beats the much larger selection of Megadrive shmups.

Axelay
Area 88 (Capcom's finest 2D shmup)
R-Type III: Third Lightning (best R-Type ever, simply amazing)
Super Aleste (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie (one of the finest shmups ever, tons of sprites on screen with no slowdown, trounces over the average PCE & Saturn Macross games)
Flying Hero
Sonic Wings
Gokujou Parodius, jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius and Parodius Da
Cotton 100%
Pop 'n Twinbee


Wait people LIKE Cotton 100%?  It's a rape of the series in my opinion.  AWFUL AWFUL game.
The rest of those are mediocre ports of arcade games, for the most point. Sure it's got
a few ok shooters.  But even the MSX1 is a better shooter system then the SNES. The SNES excels at
games with long levels that repeat graphics over and over.  It's a wonderful system for people who
enjoy seeing the same 3 sprites on a loop that goes on for 5 minutes.

I have an SFC, it has a few games I like, but the majority of the library are just Famicom games with
annoyingly long levels.  Even Super Aleste has those retarded bonus stages, and you have to replay
stage 1 again before the final stage.  Pointless filler, ugh.
smiply put, I disagree with everything you just said.
The comments have no correlation with someone who's actually played amazing games like R-Type III, Macross Scrambled Valkyrie & Axelay
:D
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 01:23:19 AM by HardcoreOtaku »

Opethian

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #93 on: February 04, 2011, 01:54:53 AM »


[Mon 16:27] <BlueBMW> i wouldnt sell an unmolested duo hehe.  I molest the crap outta of em before they leave me

Tatsujin

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #94 on: February 04, 2011, 02:13:49 AM »
:lol:
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PCE Games coundown: 690/737 (47 to go or 93.6% clear)
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SuperDeadite

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #95 on: February 04, 2011, 02:27:34 AM »
I love how the SNES is supposedly the "most powerful" but it's by far the slowest of the three.

Yeah, the CPU clock speed is pathetic, which is (I assume) why the shooter selection is so terrible on SNES,

Small selection yes, but what it does have is a small selection of incredibly good shmups, which in my opinion in quality beats the much larger selection of Megadrive shmups.

Axelay
Area 88 (Capcom's finest 2D shmup)
R-Type III: Third Lightning (best R-Type ever, simply amazing)
Super Aleste (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie (one of the finest shmups ever, tons of sprites on screen with no slowdown, trounces over the average PCE & Saturn Macross games)
Flying Hero
Sonic Wings
Gokujou Parodius, jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius and Parodius Da
Cotton 100%
Pop 'n Twinbee


Wait people LIKE Cotton 100%?  It's a rape of the series in my opinion.  AWFUL AWFUL game.
The rest of those are mediocre ports of arcade games, for the most point. Sure it's got
a few ok shooters.  But even the MSX1 is a better shooter system then the SNES. The SNES excels at
games with long levels that repeat graphics over and over.  It's a wonderful system for people who
enjoy seeing the same 3 sprites on a loop that goes on for 5 minutes.

I have an SFC, it has a few games I like, but the majority of the library are just Famicom games with
annoyingly long levels.  Even Super Aleste has those retarded bonus stages, and you have to replay
stage 1 again before the final stage.  Pointless filler, ugh.
smiply put, I disagree with everything you just said.
The comments have no correlation with someone who's actually played amazing games like R-Type III, Macross Scrambled Valkyrie & Axelay
:D

I've played every game on that list.  Axelay's vertical levels are all the same thing over and over.  Sure the horizontal levels were great, but 50% of the game sucks.  Why the hell would I play a half-assed port of Parodius when I can play the real arcade game it's based on?  The best Macross games are again the arcade games.  R-Type III is inferior to all 3 of the arcade games.  The first level with all the mode 7 rotation effects is sleep inducing.  By the time it ends I simply don't care anymore.  When I play shooters I like to actually shoot stuff, not sit around waiting for the silly background to rotate.
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nodtveidt

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #96 on: February 04, 2011, 02:30:03 AM »
The bits thing is always a fun time to debate. :)

SNES = 8/16 bit hybrid CPU, 16 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), 8 bits of color output (256 max).
MD = 16 bit CPU, 8 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), 5 bits of color output (64 max).
PCE = 8 bit CPU, 16 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), >15 bits of color output (481 max).

...who's the 16 bit impostor?

Tatsujin

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #97 on: February 04, 2011, 02:47:19 AM »
I've thought the sfc is capable of 32768 colors output? so is it all all big LIE?
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Necromancer

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #98 on: February 04, 2011, 02:52:47 AM »
I've thought the sfc is capable of 32768 colors output? so is it all all big LIE?

That's the total number available to pick from, but it can only put 256 on screen at a time.
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Black Tiger

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #99 on: February 04, 2011, 02:54:19 AM »
I've noticed how when Genesis and SNES fanboys compare platforms, they tend to judge everything based around how close anything is to their favorite console, at the exclusion of rival console's strengths. So you'll find blind Genesis fans judging things not by how good or bad they are, but how Genesis-like they are or aren't. Like how a game is pathetically weak if it doesn't move fast enough to make it unplayable. Super SNES nerds though, tend to dismiss outright anything that Nintendo hasn't touched, because by default it can never even come close to comparing. :wink:

The only thing that Genesis and SNES super fans always seem to agree on though, is when the PC Engine is being discussed along with the other two consoles, they instantly dismiss any and all positives/superiorities that the PC Engine has. The craziest part of that, is that it's mainly the actual graphics that these people are saying don't count. You know, the pixel art that makes up the entire image before any gimmicks are tossed around. :P

It's even crazier when people start to point out what only the Genesis or SNES can do and how the PC Engine can't. End of discussion. It's crazy because the same people ignore the fact that the graphics in PC Engine games like Forgotten Worlds are IMPOSSIBLE to achieve on either Genesis or SNES. Period. If we're talking about what CAN'T be done on other consoles, then both the Genesis and SNES can't produce resolutions and onscreen color, or actual graphic quality, as the lowly "8-bit" PC Engine can and has in published games. They'll go on about how a warping pixelated mess or 60fps transparencies can never be matched by similar techniques on other consoles. But when the actual graphics themselves are of a higher and unmatched technical quality... all of a sudden technical feats no longer count.

You know what other hardware lacks true Mode 7 and real transparencies? Neo Geo, CPS1 and CPS2. Can those platforms never compare to the power of the SNES? One thing they all have in common with each other and the PC Engine is that they're capable of higher resolutions plus more onscreen colors and are known for amazing in-game animation. Do the flicker transparencies in CPS2 games really look so bad that those of us who think the games look good are really just "kidding ourselves"? And all the animation found in games for those three platforms, is it really no substitute for warping and pixelated effects? Because the way I see it it's the other way around. Much of the special effects on 16-bit consoles are substitutes for real art and animation. Are Seiken Densetsu 3's Intellivision-quality pixelated O's really more impressive than animated art?

The other ridiculous stereotype that's been floating around since back in the day, is the notion of "real" and "fake" effects. Like how the PC Engine can only do "fake" parallax. I've got some terrible news for Genesis and SNES fanboys, ALL of your favorite console's graphics and scrolling is fake. These systems don't move around layers of graphic art. They cobble together of bunch of little swatches called "tiles" and create the illusion of pieces of art. It's just a simulation. But then, instead of sliding around these layers in real-time with magic invisible computer hands, these sections of tiles instantly teleport to different locations. That's right, the Genesis and SNES use ANIMATION to simulate movement, just like how the PC Engine does. There is no such thing as real-time in game graphics. It's all an animated illusion that tricks human minds with simulated movement.

Not that it matters how the little monkeys work things under the hood, but for the people ridiculing the PC Engine for only having two layers like some 8-bit chump, it actually has 3 layers. There's the tiles, sprites and a solid color layer that is normally invisible. Why does it matter? It is used at times for things like transparency effects. That rolling tunnel in Metamor Jupitor would be impressive enough on its own. But what's all the more impressive is that it actually has shading with a gradient that the graphics are rolling through. I believe that Chris Covell's Axelay SuperGrafx demo also uses that third layer for the transparency at the horizon.

One minor note: Earlier people were talking about the SuperGrafx transparency demo(s) with Zelda graphics. Tomaitheous actually made those demos. He also made a cool transparency demo for PCE that uses Thunder Force IV graphics. It doesn't matter what kind of demos show the potential the PCE has though, there are loads of PCE games with cool translucency, silhouette and misc "transparency" like effects. Many of which are impossible to do with and look better than slapping a SNES transparency layer over something. Also those fugly flicker transpencies allow multiple layers and transparent sprites, something the SNES can't do in "hardware" either.

Anyway, if the actual graphic quality is negligible and a better measure of true "16-bit"ness or Genesis/SNES caliber graphics is scrolling a background layer vertically and horizontally behind the foreground... then I give you "real" 16-bit graphics that has been "deceptively" (LIES! :^o) described as "8-bit" to this day-

« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 02:58:09 AM by Black Tiger »
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Tatsujin

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #100 on: February 04, 2011, 02:55:07 AM »
damn is the PCE awesome.
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nodtveidt

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #101 on: February 04, 2011, 03:00:21 AM »
I've thought the sfc is capable of 32768 colors output? so is it all all big LIE?
Mode-7 is capable of 15 bit color output via add/subtract transparencies but this isn't direct manipulation of pixels so it's difficult to draw a comparison. My figures are based on directly manipulable pixels.

Oh and I got it wrong... it's 61 colors, not 64 colors. So it's not even 5 bits color output. :P

These foolish wars are just that... foolish. And the fanboys come out in droves to defend their chosen consoles. It's all so stupid. Misinformation is always going to be thrown around by those who have their preferences.

Necromancer

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #102 on: February 04, 2011, 03:04:13 AM »
The other ridiculous stereotype that's been floating around since back in the day, is the notion of "real" and "fake" effects. Like how the PC Engine can only do "fake" parallax.

When people dismiss the PCE for not having hardware parallax, I like to ask 'em their opinion of the NeoGeo.

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Tatsujin

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #103 on: February 04, 2011, 03:07:53 AM »
does the neogeo not having hardware parallax scrolling?
www.pcedaisakusen.net
the home of your individual PC Engine collection!!
PCE Games coundown: 690/737 (47 to go or 93.6% clear)
PCE Shmups countdown: 111/111 (all clear!!)
Sega does what Nintendon't, but only NEC does better than both together!^^

Necromancer

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #104 on: February 04, 2011, 03:11:48 AM »
does the neogeo not having hardware parallax scrolling?

It's worse than the PCE, as it doesn't have any backgound layers - it's all sprites.
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