I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.

[Emerald Rocker]

So... why don't the Genesis fanboys ever compare their console to the Neo Geo?

Because the NeoGeo was arcade hardware, and no one except the token rich kid (the same kid who bought Fortress Maximus five years earlier) actually owned the damn thing back when it was available at Babbage's.

Everyone knew the NeoGeo was king when it came to capability.

[Emerald Rocker]

Yes you do. You're faining innocence and ignorance, but I know you understand the point I was making. Magazines, forums, and people have been using the term mode 7 to describe anything that looks remotely similar, on other systems, for years and year. Even to this day. Everyone here know exactly what is meant of someone uses that term.

That's news to me.  I guess I normally hang around people with brains, as Tatsujin put it =D

[ccovell]

Errata:

The bits thing is always a fun time to debate.

SNES = 8/16 bit hybrid CPU, 16 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), 8 bits of color output (256 max).
MD = 16 bit CPU, 8 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), 5 bits of color output (64 max).
PCE = 8 bit CPU, 16 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), >15 bits of color output (481 max).

This is not a good way to compare systems, by getting what you think is their "final" colour output, then converting them back into bitplanes.  So, I hope you were joking.

As Bonknuts pointed out, the SNES has a 2048-colour tile mode.  It's not well-known, but that's not a defense in ignoring it in some "bits" comparison.   Not to mention the 8-bit transparency layer (not just 1-colour addition/subtraction but actual transparency) which multiplies colour counts.  The Genesis also has a shadow/highlight mode that increases the actual number of colours on-screen with no raster split tricks.  So it's not as simple as counting the popular perception of colours and saying it's scientific.

And Bonknuts, if you're going to be comparing CPUs and data buses against each other, then yes the SNES' CPU has a 16-bit CPU & 8-bit data bus, whereas the Genesis' has a 32-bit CPU and 16-bit data bus.

OldRover: the Neo-Geo does have background tiles: 1 plane of 8x8 BG tiles called a FIX plane.  It's used for score displays, panel readouts, etc.  Ingame graphics and level backgrounds are all sprites, but it's not correct to say that the NG has no background display.

[Bonknuts]

Ccovell. I wasn't particularly trying to compare CPU to each system. I was updating Old Rover's list. The bus and 'bits' for the Genesis and SNES video chips were incorrect in his list. But that wasn't to degrade the Genesis and SNES, because even with those statistics, the systems output impressive visual results. And the point being bits doesn't really matter, the end product does.

 From a software engineer point of view, the original 68k is 32bit. But from a hardware engineers point of view, it's 16bit (a single 16bit ALU. Not dual or chained or anything like that). It's just a matter of hardware level macro instructions instead of software level macro instructions. If the official and only assembler had 16bit macro instructions for an 8bit CPU, you'd probably see the same argument on the SE side too. The original 68k was also microcoded. Saying the 68k is 32bit is about as misleading as in saying the 65816 is really 8bit. Also taking the software engineer's view that it's 32bit in that context, make it look rather pathetic IMO against other class of 16bit and even 8bit CPUs. I.e. it makes a poor 32bit CPU in comparison to the 6809 and 6502 and related CPUs (and yes, z80 not in that list). A 68020 is a 32bit CPU because it has a 32bit ALU, even though the instructions don't vary much at all (although instruction cycle speed did).

 And I believe the term for NG is 'window'. Many arcade systems had a window layer that was non scrollable. And it's almost always fixed to show on top of all the other layers. Hence the name window and not BG layer. The original system16 arcade system had one of these as well, but that doesn't make it a 2 BG layer display.

[Otaking]

Sloth: Mama!
Mama Fratelli: Come to mama Slothy, come on hmm?
Sloth: Mama, you've been bad you play PC Engine.
Mama Fratelli: Oh, Slothy. I may have been bad. I may have kept you chained up in that room but it was for your own good.
Sloth: Yeah!
Mama Fratelli: You remember that song I used to sing to you?
Sloth: Yeah!
Mama Fratelli: You were little back then?
[singing]
Mama Fratelli: Rock-a-bye baby on the tree top. When the wind blows the Super Famicom sucks. When the bough breaks the cradle will fall...
Sloth: Break! Fall! R-Type III
Mama Fratelli: No! I only dropped once.
Sloth: Ahh! I hate Super Famicom
Mama Fratelli: Well, maybe twice. No Sloth! Put me down!

[nodtveidt]

This is not a good way to compare systems, by getting what you think is their "final" colour output, then converting them back into bitplanes.  So, I hope you were joking.

Of course I was joking. It made about as much sense as the whole argument over how "powerful" the systems are... people can banter on and on and on and on (and they do) about how X system is so much greater than Y system because Z feature but it really doesn't make a snotbucket worth of difference at the end of the day. I made up some specs and mixed them in with some real ones, just like all the chowderheads do. That's why these lame "debates" are so fun... you get to make shit up as you go along, and some people will actually believe you.

[nodtveidt]

Magazines, forums, and people have been using the term mode 7 to describe anything that looks remotely similar, on other systems, for years and year. Even to this day.

Case in point: the original author of PAlib (Mollusk) named the rotation/scaling capabilities of the DS "Mode 7" which irritated the hell out of me... to the point where I modified that portion of the lib to remove the misleading reference.

[Emerald Rocker]

I made up some specs and mixed them in with some real ones

+10 points

[Arkhan]

The MSX has this jacked up like 16 jiggabillion color mode.  It wins!

SUCK ON THAT, BASTARDS.

[nectarsis]

That's why these lame "debates" are so fun... you get to make shit up as you go along, and some people will actually believe you.

Yet people wonder why/complain why there's so much incorrect info/assumptions out there  

[shubibiman]

I didn't think this was supposed to be a serious thread. Do we really care anyway as we all know that the PCE rocks.

[nodtveidt]

Yet people wonder why/complain why there's so much incorrect info/assumptions out there   

The difference is that I did it on purpose and it was *clearly* tongue-in-cheek... others either don't understand specifications or stretch the truth just to defend their zealotry.

[blueraven]

FLAMEWAR ready... go!

[ceti alpha]

Bottom line:

PCE kicks ass.
Genesis kicks ass.
SNES can kick ass.

I have played R-Type 3 and I didn't much care for it.  I like part 1 MUCH more.  Maybe R-Type 3 is one of those games that has to grow on you, but there is certainly nothing exciting to the gameplay that makes me want to continue playing.  In other words, it doesn't start off being anything special.  And I never was able to grasp why Area 88/UN Squadron was deemed "best shooter ever".  The music is absolutely atrocious-sounding.  I cannot abide those fake electric guitars.  They make my ears bleed.  I think this is the game that made me hate the SNES sound chip since it was so early and early impressions are hard to shake.

I bought R-Type III for the GBA, a few years back, and while it looks nice, it really is a sleeper. I've tried to give it a shot and maybe I'll go back to it, but the original hasn't been topped in that series.

[nat]

The GBA version was reprogrammed & re-drawn from the ground up, as the company that did the port didn't have access to IREM's original source code. It's inferior to the SNES version.... Give that version a chance before you write the game off completely.