Author Topic: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.  (Read 9450 times)

ceti alpha

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #135 on: February 04, 2011, 03:06:54 PM »
The GBA version was reprogrammed & re-drawn from the ground up, as the company that did the port didn't have access to IREM's original source code. It's inferior to the SNES version.... Give that version a chance before you write the game off completely.

Ah! Well nuts. I should really pick up a Super Famicom one of these days. If not just to try R-Type III the way it was supposed to be played. I didn't realize that about the GBA port.


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Arkhan

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #136 on: February 04, 2011, 03:09:12 PM »
others either don't understand specifications or stretch the truth just to defend their zealotry.

LOLMML.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Tatsujin

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #137 on: February 05, 2011, 12:21:08 AM »
If you want to see the weak SFC very well used, play some R² :)
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esteban

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #138 on: February 05, 2011, 07:13:05 AM »
3 out of 4 dentists agree:



« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 07:17:29 AM by esteban »
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henrycsc

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #139 on: February 05, 2011, 12:22:33 PM »
The heck with this place.  I'm going over to www.steamingpileo'sega.gov  ..... yes    .gov
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sunteam_paul

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #140 on: February 05, 2011, 09:59:06 PM »
A machine is only as good as what you personally get out of it.
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SignOfZeta

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #141 on: February 05, 2011, 10:31:12 PM »
A machine is only as good as what you personally get out of it.

That's sort of my point. So the PCE can do real transparencies...in a tech demo...which isn't actually a game...and only on the SGX...WTF good is that? Sure Yoshi's Island had an onboard coprocessor and the PCE could have done that...but it didn't, so it doesn't do me any f*cking good. Its pointless to mention never used potential. Again, I reference the kid with the shitty report card that could have done better "if he tried".

I can't imagine why/how anyone would complain about fake parallax (how can you even tell?) but real transparencies are something special. They really set the mood on games like Super Metroid, Kikikaikai, and many RPGs.

Something I should have said in defense of Megadrive (surprised no one brought it up yet): those scale-happy Galaxy Force II-esque games for Mega CD from Core, whatever they were called, those were pretty impressive and AFAIK way beyond SNES and obviously PCE.

sunteam_paul

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #142 on: February 05, 2011, 11:00:21 PM »
That's not actually what I meant. My point was that you can't judge a console on it's technical aspects because how good a console is is entirely dependant on how much worth and fun it has given to you, and not other people.

To me, the Master System is better than the SNES. I had more games for it, I had more fun with it. So arguing over what one can and can't do seems a little fruitless (and I did my fair share of it in the C64 vs Spectrum wars).
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Arkhan

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #143 on: February 06, 2011, 06:45:52 AM »
I pick the system that gives me the best tickle in the pants while playing.

That system, is the PC Engine.

There are people that think the Bally Astrocade destroys every console released since, and it's because they can sit and play it for hours on end without getting bored, but then you sit them in front of a 360 and they go "whats all this talking and cutscene crap, im bored. I want to shoot things".

And they go back to the old stuff.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Vecanti

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #144 on: February 06, 2011, 06:51:29 AM »
I think it's great that we can all have our opinions and discuss this without angst.  People have opinions about which hardware is better, Snes can do this or that and show X number of sprites, PCE has this many colors, or Genesis has blast processing. 

Having said that you can't change facts though.  And the fact is, PCE engine games are better than Genesis and Snes games. 


Emerald Rocker

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #145 on: February 06, 2011, 06:55:16 AM »
Phantasy Star 4 crushes anything that came out for PCE.  Plus, it would have been impossible to port to the PCE.
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Arkhan

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #146 on: February 06, 2011, 07:06:46 AM »
Phantasy Star 4 crushes anything that came out for PCE. 
Maybe to you, but really, this is crazy talk.  There are games on the same level as PSIV for PCE.


Quote
Plus, it would have been impossible to port to the PCE.

Citation needed!
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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peonpiate

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #147 on: February 06, 2011, 07:19:30 AM »
All three have their strengths and weaknesses, but the SNES is the more balanced console when you get down to it. Its only drawback is its slow CPU but developers found ways to get around that within a year or two of the system being on the market. So for the SNES, that drawback is not as big of a deal once developers got used to it.

Dont believe me ? Look at Super Smash TV for proof. There are tons of enemies in that game and it has zero slowdown. It trounces the Genesis port, which has typical [bad] Genesis sound and muddy washed out colors. The SNES's superior sound chip and color count come into play here and it shows.

Of course that doesnt mean the Genesis and the PCE are bad, they are not. They just lack in more areas than the SNES does and are missing certain features. In the PCE's case one of its drawback is its sound chip...Which is only a step up from what the NES could do. Color wise, it is equal with the SNES, which is a great thing since color is where it was at back then. Transparencies and parallax are also missing, but those can be faked. And overall to me, they are not as important as a colorful image is...So the PCE is really not lacking much compared to the SNES.

Which leads to the Genesis. Bad sound + Low color count really hurts the Genesis. Most Arcade ports are muddy on the Genesis, but colorful on the SNES. The color problem with the Genesis became very apparent to gamers back when those systems were both out and the arcade ports starting to come out...Mortal Kombat 2 especially showed the difference between the SNES and the Genesis. A Muddy looking, grainy and bad sounding port on Genny vs a near perfect port on the SNES. The PCE never recieved a MK2 port but it would have been interesting to see if it did.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 07:26:43 AM by peonpiate »

Black Tiger

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #148 on: February 06, 2011, 07:19:34 AM »
A machine is only as good as what you personally get out of it.


That's sort of my point. So the PCE can do real transparencies...in a tech demo...which isn't actually a game...and only on the SGX...WTF good is that?


There are tech demos that look every bit as good for the actual PCE, but that's besides the point. So many published PCE games already have all kinds of worthwhile and impressive transparency and similar effects. It's just that they don't count to you. Many of these effects look better and are more appropriate/effective than what could be done using the SNES's hardware transparency and many are impossible to pull off using SNES transparency. Because not only is SNES transparency not the be-all and end-all generation-defining effect, it's actually very limited in what it can be effectively used for.

Same with Mode 7. Both became as much of a stigma for the SNES as killer apps. Most SNES game developments seemed to start with a quota of SNES hardware effects that the game was to be built around. Very few seemed to be designed from the ground up as a proper games, which only used hardware effects when they would compliment what was already going to be there. It wasn't long into the SNES's lifespan that while playing a SNES game, upon reaching the first hardware effect the reaction became, "Okay, here we go with the obligatory SNES effects" :roll:. This kind of sentiment was even expressed in game mag coverage. The same people who have championed the SNES to this day as the sum of the 16-bit generation and refer to all 2D games ever since as having "SNES graphics".

All that SNES transparency does is tint. But it's used for so many other effects that are much more effectively rendered with "fake" techniques. In reality, when SNES games use hardware transparency to attempt an effect other than tinting, it's the SNES game's effect that is "fake". The only thing "real" about SNES transparency is how much it is SNES transparency. Hardware built-in effects are only a method, just like when hardware renders an effect without a dedicated built-in chip. It's the effect itself in the end that is real.


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Sure Yoshi's Island had an onboard coprocessor and the PCE could have done that...but it didn't, so it doesn't do me any f*cking good. Its pointless to mention never used potential. Again, I reference the kid with the shitty report card that could have done better "if he tried".


I guess then that you view the PC Engine as a 'shitty underachiever' when it comes to graphics? Nobody here is questioning that, what many of us are saying is that the PCE already has so many games that are visually impressive to the rest of us. Equal to or greater than in some aspects and/or overall than the most impressive SNES games. Of course, the Genesis technically crushes both consoles with its 32X games, which also run off of additional processing hardware. :wink:


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I can't imagine why/how anyone would complain about fake parallax (how can you even tell?) but real transparencies are something special. They really set the mood on games like Super Metroid, Kikikaikai, and many RPGs.


I can't imagine why/how anyone would complain about "fake" transparency effects. Back in the day, my SNES loving friends called this real transpancies and scaling + rotation (mode 7):



Apparently as SNES players, "real" transpancies weren't so much more special than "fake" ones. :wink:



Quote
Something I should have said in defense of Megadrive (surprised no one brought it up yet): those scale-happy Galaxy Force II-esque games for Mega CD from Core, whatever they were called, those were pretty impressive and AFAIK way beyond SNES and obviously PCE.


There are many more impressive 3D Sega-CD games than just what Core developed. The Sega-CD has games with as nice looking or better 3D graphics than early 32-bit console games-



It doesn't matter whether you know for a fact or can tell if polygons or something specific is being used. All that matters is how it looks in the end and those Sega-CD games look better than many "real" 3D 32X, 3D0, Jaguar, PSX, Saturn, and N64 games. But in the end, how many people like playing these games over more popular genres and think that pixelly 3D games look so much better than visually impressive 2D games?




Dont believe me ? Look at Super Smash TV for proof. There are tons of enemies in that game and it has zero slowdown. It trounces the Genesis port, since the SNES's superior sound chip and color count come into play also.


Does that mean if the Genesis has two games with less slowdown plus better graphics and sound than SNES versions, that it's proof that the Genesis trounces the SNES? :wink:


Quote
In the PCE's case its only major drawback is its sound chip...Which is only a step up from what the NES could do. ...Which leads to the Genesis. Bad sound + Low color count really hurts the Geny here.


:lol:  :dance:  :lol:



Phantasy Star 4 crushes anything that came out for PCE.  Plus, it would have been impossible to port to the PCE.


PSIV is pretty overrated, as much as I love it. Shining Force, Shining Force II and Shining Force CD however, are equal to or capable of crushing almost all other 16-bit console games. Of course this is because of the actual games themselves, which could easily be replicated with enchancements and compromises on PCE & SNES.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 07:31:00 AM by Black Tiger »
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Arkhan

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #149 on: February 06, 2011, 07:29:44 AM »
In the PCE's case one of its drawback is its sound chip...Which is only a step up from what the NES could do.


I'm sorry.  What?

32 byte waveforms, 5-bit amplitudes, 6 channels with stereo panning, samples on every channel, and you say its only a step above what the NES can do?

WHAT?

It's on par and even surpasses the Konami SCC due to stereo panning, an extra channel, and sampling capabilities.  SCC has 8-bit amplitudes.  That's its only better part.

Either way.

WHAT?


I mean really, the NES can't touch the PC Engine sound wise.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 07:37:13 AM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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