Author Topic: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.  (Read 9500 times)

Joe Redifer

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #150 on: February 06, 2011, 08:28:03 AM »
Quote from: SignOfZeta
I can't imagine why/how anyone would complain about fake parallax (how can you even tell?)
If the fake parallax isn't done well, parts of it will flicker away when there is too much action on certain parts of the screen.

Black Tiger was saying something kind of similar I think, but I'd like to drive the point home:  I am more impressed when a TurboGrafx game does parallax scrolling than I am when a Genesis game does it.  Why?  Because I know the Turbo only has one background to mess with since it is super crippled/weak/handicapped/mentally incompetent/mentally disturbed/etc.  When the Genesis does this effect, I think "OK whatevs" since it does it all the time.  But on the Turbo the developer needs to put more effort into it which usually makes the game a bit more special to me.  I am impressed by the evil programming trickery done to fool me.

SignOfZeta

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #151 on: February 06, 2011, 08:28:28 AM »
Phantasy Star 4 crushes anything that came out for PCE. 

I'm actually playing through PSIV right now. I'm having to grind to beat the final boss in that f*cking air castle. I like this game a lot, but I like the Final Fantasy games from that period more. Also, several PCE games.

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Plus, it would have been impossible to port to the PCE.

I can't see one thing in this game the PCE couldn't do. Enlighten me.

Emerald Rocker

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #152 on: February 06, 2011, 08:30:51 AM »
Metamor Jupiter's flight down the spinning barrel of a giant laser cannon is far more impressive than Super Castlevania 4's dumb randomly-spinning corridor.  Therefore, the PCE is better than the SNES.  Even if Metamor Jupiter's visually simplistic first level boss (all it does is scale and rotate) brought the system down to a crawl.

But Gunstar Heroes on Genesis had the boss "Melon Bread" who could not be replicated on PCE (due to technical limitations) or SNES (due to slow processor speed) so I don't see why people keep trying to compare the systems.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 08:32:53 AM by Emerald Rocker »
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ceti alpha

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #153 on: February 06, 2011, 08:35:48 AM »
In the PCE's case one of its drawback is its sound chip...Which is only a step up from what the NES could do.


I'm sorry.  What?

32 byte waveforms, 5-bit amplitudes, 6 channels with stereo panning, samples on every channel, and you say its only a step above what the NES can do?

WHAT?

It's on par and even surpasses the Konami SCC due to stereo panning, an extra channel, and sampling capabilities.  SCC has 8-bit amplitudes.  That's its only better part.

Either way.

WHAT?


Yeah, can't agree more with that:

Soldier Blade music NES -

Soldier Blade music OBEY -


FC Engine on YouTube (aka Ninja Spirit) has done some awesome NES music from existing PCE/TG games. Very impressive stuff, but you can really tell the difference. But, going with the Soldier Blade theme here's Ninja Spirit's Super Famicom remix of the same music. Sounds great. Not superior to the PCE, but just different:

Soldier Blade music SNES:










"Let the CAW and Mystery of a Journey Unlike Any Other Begin"

Arkhan

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #154 on: February 06, 2011, 08:47:55 AM »
The PCE has the best sound chip of any of these systems to me..  Even in the hands of a jackass, the sounds come out ok.  The have that warm, smooth lead that sounds great with arcade style games.  SNES has sampleitis, like the Amiga, where arcade games just don't sound right.  The music isn't smooth and buttery enough.   I wish arcade cabinets had a similar chip in them more often than FM chips.  It would have ruled!

FM's biggest drawback is man, if you do it wrong, you will make ears bleed.   I love FM, but theres a TON of farty stuff out there that shouldn't have left the labs.  I'm looking at you, IREM.

I rank it

PCE-->MegaDrive--->SNES for music.

Both FM and PCEPSG are way more than a step above NES.  Unless you're taking some giant steps.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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SignOfZeta

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #155 on: February 06, 2011, 08:48:25 AM »
Quote from: Black Tiger
All that SNES transparency does is tint. But it's used for so many other effects that are much more effectively rendered with "fake" techniques. In reality, when SNES games use hardware transparency to attempt an effect other than tinting, it's the SNES game's effect that is "fake". The only thing "real" about SNES transparency is how much it is SNES transparency. Hardware built-in effects are only a method, just like when hardware renders an effect without a dedicated built-in chip. It's the effect itself in the end that is real.

Nah. "Real" transparencies are seen on the Saturn, the PS, and almost anything newer except for 16-bit arcade hardware. Real transparencies don't flicker. They don't change the rate at which they flicker when the action gets heavy, etc. The Hyper Cocoon in Gate of Thunder. When the music track changes from stage to boss one half of it will become completly opaque, and the other will disappear entirely...fake transparency. Fake transparencies aren't transparent in screen shots (unless they are the OG type taken with a Polaroid and a monitor hood) and they work for shit with almost any digital capture/tansfer device including LCD TVs. A "real" transparency is always see through, no matter what else is going on.

Every transparency on every retail PCE game is fake. They flicker completely opaque objects, usually inconsistently. Its just a fact. f*ck tech demos, they are neat but I can't play them. You not being able to tell the difference between a code based version of this effect and the SNES's hardware accelerate one is either wishful thinking or shitty eyesight.

But hey, all of this is okay! :) I mean, seriously, calm down. Obviously I love the PCE. I'm here, aren't I? I'm not some slobbering Nintendo fanboy. For the past several years I've played almost nothing but PCE, and lately a lot of Neo and Genesis, none of these systems do what the SNES does with the see-through stuff. I haven't even bothered to replace my SNES collection since my girlfriend dumped me four years ago and took off with it) but I'm not going to...pretend, which is what you are doing.


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Sure Yoshi's Island had an onboard coprocessor and the PCE could have done that...but it didn't, so it doesn't do me any f*cking good. Its pointless to mention never used potential. Again, I reference the kid with the shitty report card that could have done better "if he tried".

I guess then that you view the PC Engine as a 'shitty underachiever' when it comes to graphics? Nobody here is questioning that, what many of us are saying is that the PCE already has so many games that are visually impressive to the rest of us. Equal to or greater than in some aspects and/or overall than the most impressive SNES games. Of course, the Genesis technically crushes both consoles with its 32X games, which also run off of additional processing hardware. :wink:

No, I don't think the PCE is shitty. (See above). What I'm saying is that the potential inclusion of a non-existant coprocessor doesn't influence my opinion of the machine (which I love). What matters is actual games that exist here in this dimension. Therefore I'm going to respect the SNES's achievement with Yoshi's Island and not write it off as something the PCE could have done in some fantasy word.

Emerald Rocker

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #156 on: February 06, 2011, 08:52:45 AM »
Yoshi's Island could have been done on the Xbox.
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SignOfZeta

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #157 on: February 06, 2011, 09:01:47 AM »
Yoshi's Island could have been done on the Xbox.

It has been done on XBox.

nodtveidt

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #158 on: February 06, 2011, 09:10:52 AM »
Plus, it would have been impossible to port to the PCE.
I can't see one thing in this game the PCE couldn't do. Enlighten me.
Me neither. The only thing that the PCE would require a little trickery with is the minuscule amount of parallax scrolling in the caves... but even that is easily solved. I've been thinking about doing a PSIV port to the PCE for a few years now and all of these things have already gone through my head many times over. A 4MB bank-switched cartridge could be made with ease, not unlike SFIICE. However, who would want to? The sound wouldn't be quite the same, and if the graphics were converted directly, it wouldn't look up to par with most other RPGs on the PCE... although some color expansion plus massive amounts of retouching would solve that and make it look awesome. It's still fun to think about. PSIV didn't push the MD hardware in any way so there's really nothing to it that couldn't be done on the PCE.

Now... converting it for the SNES? Can't be done. Why not? Resolution. The SNES operates in 256 or 512 horizontal pixels, PSIV uses 320 horizontal pixels. You're not going to be able to faithfully reproduce the resolution of the game, and therefore, the game will take a major hit because of it. Why the SNES is locked in 256/512 is beyond me. I have searched high and low for information that might allow the SNES to go into 320 pixel mode and it just doesn't seem possible.

Bonknuts

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #159 on: February 06, 2011, 09:26:31 AM »
Quote from: SignOfZeta
I can't imagine why/how anyone would complain about fake parallax (how can you even tell?)

If the fake parallax isn't done well, parts of it will flicker away when there is too much action on certain parts of the screen.

Black Tiger was saying something kind of similar I think, but I'd like to drive the point home:  I am more impressed when a TurboGrafx game does parallax scrolling than I am when a Genesis game does it.  Why?  Because I know the Turbo only has one background to mess with since it is super crippled/weak/handicapped/mentally incompetent/mentally disturbed/etc.  When the Genesis does this effect, I think "OK whatevs" since it does it all the time.  But on the Turbo the developer needs to put more effort into it which usually makes the game a bit more special to me.  I am impressed by the evil programming trickery done to fool me.


 The flicker break in a back ground for 'fake' scrolls isn't a deal breaker for me. If anything I rather them try to make the effort than not. I bet even if you didn't know the exact technical reason as to why more complex/parallax scrolling was absent for the majority, it wouldn't change anything. You'd still assume something was more difficult to over come to get to that level of scrolling complexity. And in fact most people don't really understand why or how, but they can still tell you that it's more of an exciting visual accomplishment on the system than it would be on the Genesis or SNES.

I'm both a Genesis fan and a PCE fan. While I don't have a need for an over abundance of complex scrolls to reach some visual gamer climax/orgasm, I do like something other than a flat BG all the time. Complex layering doesn't have to be all the time or everywhere. Use it to transition starting areas into a level, or such. Or just part(s) in a level, etc. That can go a long way in the over feel of a game. A handful of PCE games do this, but not enough through out the game and/or not games even attempt it. That's rather sad IMO. But I think that reflects back on the systems library as whole, or rather how developers treated it. It's the accumulation of small touches like that, that go a long, long way. And vice versa (stand out when missing). I probably couldn't give a more perfect example than Rondo of Blood. Disregarding all the high level of production values that went into this game, just specifically look at how they sprinkled the game with more complex layered scrolling. They didn't try to add complex layered scrolling in every single part of the game. But they added it in transitional areas and other small areas. If many of the 'flat' PCE games replicated that approach to even just a third of what Rondo does, it wouldn't have this stigmata that it has now IMO. Fun factor is important, but it's not the only important factor in a game. Impressive/great visual and auditory parts of a game, can make a good fun game into fantastic game. No matter how fun a game is, if those other parts of a game don't meet the bar per se - it just leaves you with an unsatisfying feeling overall. I feel cheated when I play Super Air Zonk. Especially when I clearly see areas that even look like they have been setup for linescroll or dynamic tiles.

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Soldier Blade music NES -


 That's not a stock NES. That also uses the N106 which is a lot like the PCE's audio chip.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 09:29:28 AM by Bonknuts »

Bonknuts

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #160 on: February 06, 2011, 09:33:22 AM »
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Every transparency on every retail PCE game is fake. They flicker completely opaque objects, usually inconsistently. Its just a fact. f*ck tech demos, they are neat but I can't play them. You not being able to tell the difference between a code based version of this effect and the SNES's hardware accelerate one is either wishful thinking or shitty eyesight.

 And the transparency effects on the PCE that don't flicker? What's your opinion of those? Just curious.

Arkhan

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #161 on: February 06, 2011, 10:01:01 AM »
I think parallax / transparencies aren't really that important, especially if the game using it sucks really bad.

I agree 100% with Zeta.  I've said the same thing before.  I can't play a tech demo, so I don't really care about things that aren't in a game.  Things on a video game machine should be a GAME.  We've seen you can do tons of wild stuff on these old consoles.

Like, interlaced images on an Atari2600.  Thats nice.  I can't play it.  I don't want to stare at a low-res picture flickering like Michael J. Fox.

What really makes the PC-Engine stand out is the vibrant color capabilities.  Phantasy Star IV could be completely replicated on the PCE with not alot of problem.  Depending on your taste, it would look better. 

Put it on a CD, rip the audio, and have the exact same tunes even. ;)  even if you did PSG versions, the tunes would sound badass.  There was that one Phantasy Star demo floating around with chiptunes in it from PSII.   They sounded badass.

Similar concept would be to look at Emerald Dragon on PCE, and then on other systems, like MSX2.    Much more vibrant!
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Emerald Rocker

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #162 on: February 06, 2011, 10:01:05 AM »
Ninja Gaiden has some great parallax.
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SignOfZeta

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #163 on: February 06, 2011, 10:07:00 AM »
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Every transparency on every retail PCE game is fake. They flicker completely opaque objects, usually inconsistently. Its just a fact. f*ck tech demos, they are neat but I can't play them. You not being able to tell the difference between a code based version of this effect and the SNES's hardware accelerate one is either wishful thinking or shitty eyesight.

 And the transparency effects on the PCE that don't flicker? What's your opinion of those? Just curious.

THEY ALL FLICKER. That's how they function. What are you, blind?

nodtveidt

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #164 on: February 06, 2011, 10:12:49 AM »
Put it on a CD, rip the audio, and have the exact same tunes even. ;)  even if you did PSG versions, the tunes would sound badass.  There was that one Phantasy Star demo floating around with chiptunes in it from PSII.   They sounded badass.
That demo might still be on zeograd.com. It wasn't all that impressive but at least it did have music... even if it was based on Trilinear's attempt at a hucard PSG driver.