Author Topic: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.  (Read 9462 times)

Tatsujin

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #180 on: February 06, 2011, 02:03:16 PM »
THEY ALL FLICKER. That's how they function. What are you, blind?

 Am I blind??? Are you a prick? Put a leash on the condescending tone for just a sec.

 These are the games that come to mind when I think of non flickering transparency.

Everything you listed is a flicker effect because there is no other way to do it on the PCE. The possible exception is that one one level of Sapphire with the light on the floor. I don't quite understand how that was done. I'm suspecting its just very effective use of traditional animation, but honestly I have no idea. Maybe its just really kick-ass flicker.


I believe, some of them are done with tiles (or stuff), which are like a stealth plane over the background which then can be changed in colors to creat kind of the illusion of a transparent transformation. In fact it's only an animation over the actual BG.
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Black Tiger

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #181 on: February 06, 2011, 02:07:03 PM »
why did so many companies fail to use transparency on the SS? 2D & 3D.
just look at akumajo dracula x - gekka no yasokyoku. it ruined a lot.


There are still so many that did use transparencies. Unfortunately, just like PCE with parallax, the ones that don't stand out more.

In the case of Dracula X, it was a quick port and depending on who you believe, rendered using polygons.

an other case is radiant silvergun. no trans there, altought it would have looked 200% better if it had :(

it seems that I'm only aware of those titles which didn't use transparency..lol.

I believe that Radiant Silvergun has transparency effects on every stage (like every background). I'm guessing that you're looking for games that don't have any instances of transparency substitutes as well.
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Bonknuts

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #182 on: February 06, 2011, 02:09:50 PM »
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Everything you listed is a flicker effect because there is no other way to do it on the PCE.


 And you know this because? Everything I listed specifically is not a flicker based effect. You need to go back check for yourself if you gonna make such declarations. And you even make them admittedly without any knowledge of the system too.  :o

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The possible exception is that one one level of Sapphire with the light on the floor. I don't quite understand how that was done. I'm suspecting its just very effective use of traditional animation, but honestly I have no idea. Maybe its just really kick-ass flicker.


 Sapphire is not an exception from that list. It doesn't flicker. I'm not sure how flicker can be more than what it is, more kick-ass or super. You can't just increase the rate of alternating pixels beyond what the display allows, now can you? And as a side note: LCDs still uses flicker. Much higher rate. Plasma uses flicker too. Just much higher than 60hz.

 I could explain these effects if you really wanted know, but knowing how they were done doesn't change the original point - that you think 'ALL' transparency on the PCE is flicker based. There's the SGX demos, but that's the SGX so you exclude them. That's valid, since 2 of the three demos required SGX specific hardware to create the effect. And no, they don't use any sort of flicker.

 But there's also Jackie Chan. One of those SGX demos uses the same effect of Jackie Chan. And it's also not a flicker effect. Add that to the list of transparency effects on the PCE that's not flicker based and in a game.


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The reason I mentioned LCDs wasn't to say, "these effects suck because they don't work on LCDs". That would be silly. I was merely pointing out that the reason they don't work on such displays is because they are flickering, therefore, if you want to know which transparencies are flicker based, just watch a Youtube video of the game that was grabbed via analog video capture.


 Well, using the LCD and capture type devices as example; they can look even better than a real/original SD display. Not every LCD simply throws away 1 frame. Many do frame blending because it treats the frame as a field. It really depends on the hardware. Most of the stuff you see on youtube is emulation screen capture vids. You have to go the extra mile if you wanted to frame blend that sort of footage, since YT doesn't support 60p in all resolutions (supposedly it does for 240p view mode, but not all videos for some reason). Back to point; it's not JUST flicker that doesn't show in the examples you're talking about. Anything that exists in 60fps time zone is lost when dropping a frame. That means a lot of Shmups only show half the bullets for those kind of videos too. And that has nothing to do flicker. Anyway, I'm still not sure what this has to do with flicker base effects. These systems weren't made to be view on display equipment that's going to be dropping/not display half the frames. So they have no relevance as to whether flicker is a valid method or not. Nor does emulation (which often breaks the illusion since it will drop frames from time to time).

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Regarding transparencies on the SS. I'm pretty sure they are, like the SNES, limited to BG layers or something like that. They are used well in...Thunderforce V, I think it is, in the BGs. Shining Force III has one town with a giant blue gem or something (it was a long time ago) that is transparent and not made using dithering, that obviously isn't a BG by nature, but it, but maybe its possible to use a matte of sorts aligned with a polygon (not correct terms here, sorry).


 It's not. All warped quads can be rendered in transparency. There's an undesirable effect in the rendering when there's an overlapping bend edge of the same quad that folds back onto itself. The transparency logic isn't correctly applied. If you technically capable of following along, there's an in depth explanation over at spritesmind dev forum.

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I believe, some of them are done with tiles (or stuff), which are like a stealth plane over the background which then can be changed in colors to creat kind of the illusion of a transparent transformation. In fact it's only an animation over the actual BG.


 ??? stealth plane over the background O_o  :D If you really want to know, I can explain them. Sometimes it's better not to know the magic behind the trick ;) It losses its luster afterwards....


 No one mentioned the TFIV transparency demo for PCE? But I guess that doesn't count since we're not counting demos.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 02:16:26 PM by Bonknuts »

Black Tiger

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #183 on: February 06, 2011, 02:14:01 PM »
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Everything you listed is a flicker effect because there is no other way to do it on the PCE. The possible exception is that one one level of Sapphire with the light on the floor. I don't quite understand how that was done. I'm suspecting its just very effective use of traditional animation, but honestly I have no idea. Maybe its just really kick-ass flicker.

Wow. :P So you know the PCE inside out that well huh? There are several ways the PCE can do those kinds of transparency effects. I actually mentioned one non-flicker method earlier. Programmers have talked about some of these methods as they were achieved in published games in this forum in the past.

It's pretty hypocritical to toss around "Are you blind?" insults when you yourself can't tell the difference been flicker transparencies and other 60fps PCE transparency effects. [-X
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Tatsujin

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #184 on: February 06, 2011, 02:16:13 PM »
why did so many companies fail to use transparency on the SS? 2D & 3D.
just look at akumajo dracula x - gekka no yasokyoku. it ruined a lot.


There are still so many that did use transparencies. Unfortunately, just like PCE with parallax, the ones that don't stand out more.

In the case of Dracula X, it was a quick port and depending on who you believe, rendered using polygons.

an other case is radiant silvergun. no trans there, altought it would have looked 200% better if it had :(

it seems that I'm only aware of those titles which didn't use transparency..lol.

I believe that Radiant Silvergun has transparency effects on every stage (like every background). I'm guessing that you're looking for games that don't have any instances of transparency substitutes as well.

youre right. the clouds und stuff look like nice transparents, but not so those in all direction ray-explosions and uberbeams of all the enemies, nor does your weaponry use the advantage of transparency.

@nutsbonk, yeah sorry am lacking in explaining things sometimes..lol. but as talked about this stuff in an other thread (comparison thread), the trans in drac x (knight boss), was actually done that way by changing tiles over the bg.
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Bonknuts

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #185 on: February 06, 2011, 02:19:23 PM »
@tats: Hey, no worries :D The stealth part made me grin :wink: Hmm.. stealth plane. I might use that term for something ;)

Arkhan

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #186 on: February 06, 2011, 02:30:39 PM »
The scrolling background in Asuka 120% is not the background.  Those burning fest logos are sprites.

Everything else is a background.

The blue window is a clever color trick you can do with the PCE, I believe.

PS: Hi Tom.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 02:41:05 PM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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nodtveidt

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #187 on: February 06, 2011, 04:25:50 PM »
I could explain these effects if you really wanted know, but knowing how they were done doesn't change the original point - that you think 'ALL' transparency on the PCE is flicker based. There's the SGX demos, but that's the SGX so you exclude them. That's valid, since 2 of the three demos required SGX specific hardware to create the effect. And no, they don't use any sort of flicker.
I'm actually interested in this... I have always assumed though that it's just a case of prerendered tiles, as with most of the rest of the game. The massive amount of ACD RAM would allow for thousands of prerendered tiles to support this kind of effect.

But there's also Jackie Chan. One of those SGX demos uses the same effect of Jackie Chan. And it's also not a flicker effect. Add that to the list of transparency effects on the PCE that's not flicker based and in a game.
The "Jackie Chan Effect"... heh. People have been pulling this one off for years now. It's most certainly NOT flicker-based... it's exploitation of the hardware's physical limitations. Myself and Charles MacDonald tried to explain it to Gravis but I don't know if he got it or not... actually, I think he did in the end. :D I've yet to actually use the effect in a game because of its limited uses (I'm so not a fan of solid-color backgrounds anyways) but if the need ever arose, it's one of the easiest of all PCE special effects to pull off.

Vecanti

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #188 on: February 06, 2011, 05:35:27 PM »
The possible exception is that one one level of Sapphire with the light on the floor. I don't quite understand how that was done. I'm suspecting its just very effective use of traditional animation, but honestly I have no idea. Maybe its just really kick-ass flicker.

That effect is real time light sourcing/bump mapping.  Genesis and SNES can't touch that.

Bonknuts

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #189 on: February 06, 2011, 06:01:15 PM »
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I'm actually interested in this... I have always assumed though that it's just a case of prerendered tiles, as with most of the rest of the game. The massive amount of ACD RAM would allow for thousands of prerendered tiles to support this kind of effect.

 The effect is clever. But the root of the effect has been used in some PCE games before (shadowing). Why this effect was only used to this level in all of the PCE's life, is beyond me. It's a pretty simple effect; you reserve a chunk of subpalettes (cause the PCE has plenty to spare), then apply the different subpalettes to the tilemap in whatever way you want. In the case of the ship, it's a circle with a few fade off rings. IIRC the game uses six 16color subpalettes for that area. Well, that's how many are reserved for the effect. It might not use all six of them, haven't looked at it in a while. But yeah, simple as that. The effect can be taken to much better high extremes, but no game does. Pitty.

 I assume you probably already know how the other FX are done? Rondo is just simple animation. Asuka and Shapeshifter use an hsync interrupt to changes color of an object on that scanline. Asuka's is straight forward (writes all 14 colors during hsync), but the yellow board hides any onscreen graphic glitches - thus the sprites change colors/shades. Either the BG color #0 is changed too, or the tilemap is repositioned - I forget which. Shapeshifter does it in multiple scanlines, in smaller bursts. It looks to see what part of the sprite needs changing first. You already know Jackie Chan's. Others like Star Parodia use dynamic tiles across a tilemap different subpalette (LOT has a small barely unnoticeable part like this in the water stage opening area), same with Psychic Storm. Probably others I can't remember.

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The "Jackie Chan Effect"... heh. People have been pulling this one off for years now. It's most certainly NOT flicker-based... it's exploitation of the hardware's physical limitations. Myself and Charles MacDonald tried to explain it to Gravis but I don't know if he got it or not... actually, I think he did in the end. :D I've yet to actually use the effect in a game because of its limited uses (I'm so not a fan of solid-color backgrounds anyways) but if the need ever arose, it's one of the easiest of all PCE special effects to pull off.

 Yeah it's not an easy effect to visualize how it's done, at first. Jackie Chan uses cylinders, but the SGX demo is doable on the PCE exactly as is (same effect, but looks a little different IMO). SGX just has a built in mode to extend the effect across both VDCs instead of just limiting it to one VDC. Which is pretty useful (priority propping of BG layers across VDCs).

Joe Redifer

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #190 on: February 06, 2011, 06:17:51 PM »
The possible exception is that one one level of Sapphire with the light on the floor. I don't quite understand how that was done. I'm suspecting its just very effective use of traditional animation, but honestly I have no idea. Maybe its just really kick-ass flicker.

That effect is real time light sourcing/bump mapping.  Genesis and SNES can't touch that.

They could if they were programmed to do it.  They are capable of doing it.

ccovell

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #191 on: February 06, 2011, 06:50:03 PM »
The possible exception is that one one level of Sapphire with the light on the floor. I don't quite understand how that was done. I'm suspecting its just very effective use of traditional animation, but honestly I have no idea. Maybe its just really kick-ass flicker.

That effect is real time light sourcing/bump mapping.  Genesis and SNES can't touch that.

It is totally not bumpmapping at all.  Bumpmapping would mean that light source reflections would slide all around the contours of objects as the light source moves.  Too CPU-intensive.

The scene in Sapphire is just changing the attribute maps of the BG from darker-brighter as the ship moves around, creating illuminated parts of the level.  Not even light sourcing; more like spot brightening.  For real "light sourcing", check out Ultima III (Exodus) on the NES and various PCs to see rooms ahead of the characters appear or become obscured depending on the line of sight of the characters.  Sure, it's only two levels: lightened/black, but it's quite impressive moving about considering the age of the game.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 06:53:57 PM by ccovell »

Arkhan

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #192 on: February 06, 2011, 10:57:12 PM »
The scene in Sapphire is just changing the attribute maps of the BG from darker-brighter as the ship moves around, creating illuminated parts of the level.  Not even light sourcing; more like spot brightening.  For real "light sourcing", check out Ultima III (Exodus) on the NES and various PCs to see rooms ahead of the characters appear or become obscured depending on the line of sight of the characters.  Sure, it's only two levels: lightened/black, but it's quite impressive moving about considering the age of the game.

Realtime lighthouses on ultima 5 = awesome.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Otaking

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #193 on: February 06, 2011, 11:10:11 PM »
this all irrelevant, what really matters is revealed if you take the music from R-TYPE III stage 1, then overlay it backwards with the Streets of Rage 2, stage 3 soundtrack, Yuzo Koshiro has encoded a hidden message:
"The PC Engine and Super Famicom are 4 Bit, that's 2 bits each. I love my 12 inches of black 16 bit plastic, to be this gay takes AGES"
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 11:13:25 PM by HardcoreOtaku »

Arkhan

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Re: I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.
« Reply #194 on: February 06, 2011, 11:26:07 PM »
this all irrelevant, what really matters is revealed if you take the music from R-TYPE III stage 1, then overlay it backwards with the Streets of Rage 2, stage 3 soundtrack, Yuzo Koshiro has encoded a hidden message:
"The PC Engine and Super Famicom are 4 Bit, that's 2 bits each. I love my 12 inches of black 16 bit plastic, to be this gay takes AGES"


What if you play it UPSIDE DOWN!
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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