I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.

[Black Tiger]

Unfortunately the end result is incredibly un-incredible.

Just like the "real" thing!

  - Super Adventure Island

I don't get the SNES sound chip hate.

There's a difference between being aware of it's shortcomings & imperfections and/or preferring system generated sound like MD & PCE... and outright hating it. The SNES sound discussion developed from the widely held perception that SNES is absolutely perfect and "CD quality" combined with straight up Genesis and TG-16 sound hate.

[Arkhan]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, SNES really was under vram'd. Not just mode 7, but mode 7 really could have used more vram. PCE and MD has 64k, SGX had 128k. All came out before the SFC. SFC should have had at least 128k of vram.

Definitely.  Even the MSX2 had 128k VRAM and it's from 1986. 

Why something that came out 4 years later had less VRAM is beyond me.

That mosaic in Metamor Jupiter could be bashed out pretty quickly.  It looks like they themselves slapped it out in under an hour, because it looks so craptastic.

[Tatsujin]

I like computery sounding sound. I still love C64 music more than 99% of the orchestral scores in games these days.

There's nothing more true than that!

[Arkhan]

IIRC the SFC mode-7 coud do only one playfield at time, walls would then have required more than one playfield.

I doubt it, I think it could be done with a single playfield.  Let's say the bottom half of the screen has each scanline scaled at a different percent to give the appearance of a tilted road.  Every scanline above the top half of the screen would have the same scaling percentage so it would have the appearance of a non-tilted wall.  I don't see why something like that couldn't be done, just as long as it doesn't try to rotate (which it still could, it would just look odd as hell).

Drakkhen does something kind of like that, I think.

I can't remember for sure since I haven't touched Drakkhen in awhile.... but the top half of the screen when you're running around has static mountains and stuff while the earth around you slides around on a tilt so it gives the illusion that you are walking around travelling far distances with epic scenery in the background.

It looked pretty alright from what I remember.  

[_joshuaTurbo]

I like computery sounding sound. I still love C64 music more than 99% of the orchestral scores in games these days.

There's nothing more true than that!

I get that!  I guess I just grew to love each of the 16-bitters sounds!  All the strengths and weakness' of each.

[Arkhan]

I wonder what would have happened if the SNES had a FM chip in it instead.

[shubibiman]

  - Super Adventure Island

I don't get the SNES sound chip hate.

What about sound FX and other games sounds and musics? One exemple out of a 2000 game library doesn't prove much to me. Most of the sounds and musics I heard from SNES games sounded like shit to me. Acyually, like Sunteam Paul, I prefer computary sounding sound. Most of SNES games music sound like cheap Casio synths from the 80's.

[_joshuaTurbo]

  - Super Adventure Island

I don't get the SNES sound chip hate.

What about sound FX and other games sounds and musics? One exemple out of a 2000 game library doesn't prove much to me. Most of the sounds and musics I heard from SNES games sounded like shit to me. Acyually, like Sunteam Paul, I prefer computary sounding sound. Most of SNES games music sound like cheap Casio synths from the 80's.

So you really want me to link to hundreds of examples of SNES games I think sound good?  The link I posted was more of a "hey, look at what the SNES was capable of"  I mean if they 'sound like shit' to you, then it sounds like shit to you.  Maybe I like the sound of Cheap casio synth sound from the 80's lol!  Check out (King Arthurs World, Lost Vikings, Super Turrican, Axelay, Super Adventure Island, and Actraiser) for a couple examples of SNES games I consider to have very good soundtracks. 

[spenoza]

The SNES APU used badly sounds like cheap MIDI, with less personalty and panache than "lesser" sound chips, but Actraiser is something that couldn't have been done in chiptunes on either the Genesis or PCE, and it's some of the best game music of the entire generation.

For all the SNES music I hate, Actraiser is pure auditory genius.

[sunteam_paul]

The SNES APU used badly sounds like cheap MIDI, with less personalty and panache than "lesser" sound chips, but Actraiser is something that couldn't have been done in chiptunes on either the Genesis or PCE, and it's some of the best game music of the entire generation.

For all the SNES music I hate, Actraiser is pure auditory genius.

Hearing Actraiser for the first time was similar to when I first heard Bare Knuckle (Streets of Rage) on the MD. I could barely believe my ears.

[Bonknuts]

I think the issue with the SNES sound chip is that it's the audio equivalent of the uncanny valley.

 Ohh, that is a great analogy I definitely agree.

The SNES APU used badly sounds like cheap MIDI, with less personalty and panache than "lesser" sound chips, but Actraiser is something that couldn't have been done in chiptunes on either the Genesis or PCE, and it's some of the best game music of the entire generation.

For all the SNES music I hate, Actraiser is pure auditory genius.

 One of my pet peeves (but probably not as big as arkhan pet peeve about it) is the way 'midi' is used to describe a type of sound. You must be referring to the AWE and later PC sound cards that used hardware sample based synth to playback midi (or the cpu soft synth packs for it), if you're referring the SNES. MIDI itself has no attached sound. But the word for me represents old Adlib and sound blaster-16 (opl3) midi playback. It is the most generic, thin, plastic-y <-> metallic-y instrument sound ever. Back in the 1989-1995, almost all PC games were midi and used generic FM defined instruments. So to me, if I had to attach a particularly type of sound to midi - it would be that. And that sounds nothing like SNES. At least you didn't say NES sounds like midi. I have no idea where people get that sound relation from.

 I haven't played Drakken in a long time, but if I recall the game doesn't use mode 7. The SNES can change any scanline to any of the 8 modes at any time. Mario Kart does this. The top mountains in the distance is mode 0 (for 4 BG layer mode, but also 2bit tile mode so it saves on vram).

[Arkhan]

HOW CAN MIDI SOUND CHEAP.  IT HAS NO SOUND.  GAHHHHHHHHHHH I HATE IT.

STOP DOING IT.

MIDI CAN BE USED TO CONTROL LIGHTS AND STUFF.  ITS JUST A STREAM OF INFORMATION.  NO SOUNDS ARE INVOLVED. GRAHTRJHJF;KLDJGADFG9034T04G09ERI90FDBIDFB9IFBDFBXVV*(#$&#($*#&$(#(*$(*($*(*(@^!@%!@!@

Cheap MIDI really means "The generic as balls General MIDI library often found in cheap keyboards, and built into Windows and other MIDI software as a way to get you started"

Insanity's redbook audio tracks are MIDI data.  The bass and lead channel is controlling a C64 ffs.  I forget what drum machine I used.  I moved on to a Roland DR-220 though.

That's right.  The bass and lead for Redbook Insanity music is a COMMODORE 64 SID CHIP. 

f*ck yeah.


also, I don't attach MIDI to Adlib.  I attach "dumbasses who shouldn't have touched FM because it always sounds awful" to Adlib.   

Gah, so much wasted potential in any game with Adlib support.  It ALWAYS sounds retarded.  World of Xeen is the only exception I can think of.

and maybe Ultima games, with the music patched in....

[_joshuaTurbo]

Hearing Actraiser for the first time was similar to when I first heard Bare Knuckle (Streets of Rage) on the MD. I could barely believe my ears.

That is what I thought of Legendary Axe II!! I swear on the Genny or SNES the soundtrack just wouldn't be the same!!  Love me the LEII musix!!

[sunteam_paul]

That's right.  The bass and lead for Redbook Insanity music is a COMMODORE 64 SID CHIP. 

And that is why it is truly AWESOME.

[SignOfZeta]

Most of SNES games music sound like cheap Casio synths from the 80's.

For better or worse, most of the cheap Casio synths from the 80s couldn't even dream of doing the sounds the SNES makes. Honestly they sound more like Mega Drive since both were (often) PCM in nature. AND I'M NOT CONDEMNING EITHER SO DON'T CLIMB UP MY ASS, please. I'm just saying your reference is off.