Burned PC engine & turbografx 16 games Question???

[Gladiator316]

I need to get down to bottom of this question and i finally need a straight answer from some intelligent pple. the question is basically:

" do burned copies of games affect the laser on the system negatively? does it shorten the life of the the laser?

Someone for the love of god...PLEASE HELP!!

:-)

[sunteam_paul]

I think the general concensus is: Don't worry about it.

[Arkhan]

As long as you burn them nicely and follow these rules:

1) Burn them properly.  Meaning 1-4x is the sweet spot.  If you can't get it that low, as close as you can.  Burning too fast makes the laser work harder to read and load the data.

2) Use highly reflective bottomed discs.  Cheapo dark dyed discs aren't very reflective.  You'll have loading issues.  Loading issues = more work for your laser.  You'll also notice skipping / jumpy audio on crapass discs.   Silver bottomed ones are pretty great and cheap.  Search for like Diamond Silverbacks.


So if you spring for a spindle of 100 or so high quality silver bottomed, or those Teiyo Yuden CD-Rs, and use properly ripped bin/cue, and burn them as slow as possible.....

you should be OK.


If you notice the disc is having issues loading (long loads), making funny noises while loading (loud thumpy / clicky stuff), or doing other weird things (skipping audio, etc.), take the disc out and stop using it.  It's making your laser do extra work.

Extra / overworking is how you break your laserbeam!

[Necromancer]

Here's the bottom of it: yes and no.  Is that helpful?

If it's a proper rip (no overburns, etc.) accurately burned on highly reflective media and your machine has no trouble reading it, you'll be fine.  On the other hand, if your machine is struggling to focus and continually seeking and re-seeking, you'll be sending it to an early grave.

[vestcoat]

There's a good thread here: http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=4611.msg77798#msg77798

Agranger5 did a lot of tests for how to do it right but the burners he recommends are no longer available.  Has anyone tested contemporary units?

1) Burn them properly.  Meaning 1-4x is the sweet spot.  If you can't get it that low, as close as you can.  Burning too fast makes the laser work harder to read and load the data.

The lowest speed isn't necessarily the best.  I'll see if I can find a source, but I've heard from other audio engineers the laser can start to saturate the surrounding pits on the disk if the speed is too slow (x1 or x4).  The main mastering engineer in Minneapolis (Rare Form Mastering) acknowledges that the lower speeds were important in the past, but burns his masters at x16 or x24 these days (I forget which).

I think the general concensus is: Don't worry about it.

From the various discussions over the years I thought the consensus was the opposite! 

[Arkhan]

Well the problem here is, the Turbob CD is a 1x cd drive (I think?), so it expects 1x data for optimal reading excitement.  I've had instances where burning the disc too fast results in it not loading at all , or you get super fast audio.  Cosmic Fantasy 2 w/ chipmunk talking.  lol

the Insanity master was burned on a dinosaur computer with a SCSI burner in it, at 1x.

I may set up an Amiga just to burn 1x discs in the future.

The problem nowadays is burners dont typically have a 1x CD rom speed.  You can use programs that say YOURE LIMITED TO 1X BURNS, but if your drive doesnt support it, it will force it to burn as slow as the drive supports.

[vestcoat]

Well the problem here is, the Turbob CD is a 1x cd drive (I think?), so it expects 1x data for optimal reading excitement.  

The burn speed only controllers how fast the data is written, it does not dictate the speed other devices will use to read the disk.  It's not like the speed or pitch controls on reel-to-reel tape players or hi-end CD players.  It won't affect the playback speed unless the disk is written with so many errors that the player is forced to rescan and do extra work.  The burn speed should be set just low enough to minimize jitter and writing errors.
 

I've had instances where burning the disc too fast results in it not loading at all , or you get super fast audio.  Cosmic Fantasy 2 w/ chipmunk talking.  lol

It's certainly possible for discs to be unreadable in Turbo Duos (or any old CD player) when using low quality CDRs and/or very high burn speeds.  The chipmunk voices are surprising.  Could you have somehow time compressed the red book audio tracks or changed their sampling rate?

The problem nowadays is burners dont typically have a 1x CD rom speed.  You can use programs that say YOURE LIMITED TO 1X BURNS, but if your drive doesnt support it, it will force it to burn as slow as the drive supports.

Again, x1 and x4 burn speeds may have been necessary in the Nineties (and are probably a good idea if you have an old scsi burner), but the technology has come a long way.  Read Aranger5's posts.  I'm pretty impressed with his research and he recommends x10 and x24, depending on the media.  I also think the mastering engineer I talked to carries some weight on this issue.  He’s part of a very small, tight-knit community of professionals at the top of the pro audio food chain and the work they return to clients has to be absolutely lossless and error free as they’re the final stop before duplication.  If x16 or x24 is good enough for The Cure and Prince albums he did, it’s good enough for me.  The quality of media is probably more important.

[TheOldMan]

Just my 2 cents; I'm not an expert on cd mastering but....

The burn speed only controllers how fast the data is written, it does not dictate the speed other devices will use to read the disk

Agreed that it doesn't affect the read speed, but it does affect the pit/land sizes. Some recorders turn the burning laser on/off faster than others (and some firmware does a better job of this than others), and those that are slower to respond can stretch the pits. IF the cd isn't correctly speed-matched, this can cause read errors, irregardless of the quality of the media.

The chipmunk voices are surprising.

Especially when you thought everything was right. It happens because some samples get dropped (either due to slow media or a crappy burner). Then when the track plays back, the data doesn't last long enough. End result - chipmunk voices and/or popping at the end of the track.

Again, x1 and x4 burn speeds may have been necessary in the Nineties (and are probably a good idea if you have an old scsi burner), but the technology has come a long way.  Read Aranger5's posts.

In the nineties, 4x was fast. Granted that the technology has come a long way, but keep this in mind: Newer technologies do not always work in older setups. Cds are not retroactively compatible.
And I did read Aranger5's posts. It's -not- that he recommends 10x or 24x; he notes that on the specific pioneer burners mentioned, 10x and 24x seemed to be good spots for working in older systems. Most important was the media used.

...If x16 or x24 is good enough for The Cure and Prince albums he did...

On modern equipment, yes. But just for the record, some newer CDs cause my original pioneer cd player (from the 90's) to have fits. Wonder if it's due to the mastering....
And not all of us upgrade when something new comes out, so we know about these "backwards compatible" issues.



By the way, for those of you who are doing this kind of thing and having problems... Have you tried using old 64 minute cds? I know they are tough (maybe impossible) to find, but I suspect that the longer cds cause the laser to seek past the original specs for cds, and this causes it to jam. As just a random thought, has anyone tried adding a sticky-foam piece to the end-cd sensor switch, so the laser mech triggers it sooner?

[Necromancer]

By the way, for those of you who are doing this kind of thing and having problems... Have you tried using old 64 minute cds? I know they are tough (maybe impossible) to find, but I suspect that the longer cds cause the laser to seek past the original specs for cds, and this causes it to jam. As just a random thought, has anyone tried adding a sticky-foam piece to the end-cd sensor switch, so the laser mech triggers it sooner?

Don't they start in the center and move outwards, meaning that this would only matter if you're trying to burn an image that's too big (incorrectly ripped)?

[Tatsujin]

IT DEFINITELY DOES!
NEVER PIRATE, ALWAYS ORIGINATE!
AND OBEY!

[Bonknuts]

By the way, for those of you who are doing this kind of thing and having problems... Have you tried using old 64 minute cds? I know they are tough (maybe impossible) to find, but I suspect that the longer cds cause the laser to seek past the original specs for cds, and this causes it to jam. As just a random thought, has anyone tried adding a sticky-foam piece to the end-cd sensor switch, so the laser mech triggers it sooner?

Don't they start in the center and move outwards, meaning that this would only matter if you're trying to burn an image that's too big (incorrectly ripped)?

 That's the logic I followed as well. But to be honest, it's probably some underlying issue that's just not apparent as to why. And, of all the CD setups I've seen and used for CD-Rs, it was only Duo units that got the laser stuck/jammed in the corner (mine and three other Duos). I never had that happen on my SuperCDROM^2 unit nor more original brief case CD unit. If they didn't like the disc, they simply wouldn't load it. You also have to wonder what the BIOS and game code is doing about it. Obviously there must be way to test if a seek or data retrieve is taking too long. Later CD games use their own direct control of the CD MCU (SCSI command line interface port).

 I've also had different experiences with newer drives. I had an expensive (for today, it was $150 DVD/CDR drive) Plextor drive that could burn at 6x (couple of years ago) without any bios modification or special software. But non of the 6x burned media would load or read on my PCE/SGX CD units. 8x worked perfectly fine though. My new drive has a lowest setting (bios) of 16x and burns CDRs for these two CD systems just fine. I haven't seen any extended load times compared to the original CDs I have. And for what it's worth, I did a bench mark test of how fast I could load from the CD unit via the BIOS commands. It always tested at 70k a second (loaded the arcade card in sequential 32k segment requests). Not the 150k. I haven't tried the new game CD read commands of later games yet.

[TheOldMan]

Don't they start in the center and move outwards,.....

Yes, yes they do.

...meaning that this would only matter if you're trying to burn an image that's too big (incorrectly ripped)?

And there's the problem....
No one ever complains that the laser sticks while they are playing. Ergo, the problem probably occurs due to something in either the startup or shutdown portion of the cd player. One thing I know cds do (you can hear it if you listen) is run the laser to the end of the disc and back. How do they know it's the end of the disc? I presume when they get to a track they can't read (though there is another explanation).

On 70 or 80 minute CD, this would be past the original cd specs. While I doubt this causes it to stick (it moved this far, after all), I suspect that the location of the unreadable track is noted. Then, when the game needs to park the laser assembly that's where it gets put.

(The programing docs say it might take 4 sec to re-start a cd; I assume it doesn't leave the laser assembly sitting in the data area, where it could scratch it up and ruin the disc. In any case, the turbo apparently does park the laser.)

The little switch on the motor assembly is there for just that reason - Originally, these tracks might be readable (and writable, though it wasn't guaranteed to work); the switch signaled that the laser was out of the 'readable' area, so the motor would stop. (which is the other explanation)

Now, look at it from a 70 min cd point of view: those tracks are certainly readable. BUT if the switch doesn't stop the motor, it could move past the 64 minute mark; not a problem while playing the cd (probably) but maybe parking the laser there is just enough to hit a rough spot on the long laser carriage gear. (Dunno what it's called - the long thin rod that moves the assembly) Or position it in a bad spot. That's why I asked if anyone had tried smaller, older cds or replaced/added to the foam that triggers the switch. It might stop the laser short, and keep the assembly from getting stuck.

All of this is just supposition, though. I don't have a duo to check with, and I'm not all that sure how cd players work anyway. But it does leave me with 2 more questions, though....
 1) Does this happen on just Duo-R's, just Rx's, or what. Exactly which models are affected?
 2) Has anyone tried one of those micro cd's in a pce? Just for the hell of it?

[grahf]

Just to add my experience:
I went out of my way to find old high quality burners that would do 1x, just because everyone recommended them. This was a few years ago when you could still find them. Anyway, I ALWAYS got better burns out of a CD/DVD-R recorder at 4x than I did with any of the older drives at 1x or 2x. Slower is not always better. Newer (quality) drives are much more precise, even though they burn faster. Just burn at the slowest speed your modern burner will support, and you'll probably be fine. If not, you'll know.

Also, audio errors such as chipmunk voice and stuff are 99% caused by errors with audio compression/re-inflation. Don't download shitty iso/mp3 rips. I think CDRs are best used to try games before you buy them, or to make legitimate 1-to-1 backups of games you own. If you make uncompressed backups you usually wont have audio issues.

[MottZilla]

By the way, for those of you who are doing this kind of thing and having problems... Have you tried using old 64 minute cds? I know they are tough (maybe impossible) to find, but I suspect that the longer cds cause the laser to seek past the original specs for cds, and this causes it to jam. As just a random thought, has anyone tried adding a sticky-foam piece to the end-cd sensor switch, so the laser mech triggers it sooner?

74 minute CDs, not 64. Typo perhaps?

I asked the same question awhile back and the general opinion seems to be if you burn correctly on a decent grade media you should have no problems. You can buy 74 minute CD-Rs still if you buy premium grade archive discs (the kind with gold in them) but they are expensive.

I suppose it would be good to mention that if your CD-ROM drive dies you can get it repaired.

[SignOfZeta]

FWIW:

The laser in my Duo R was stolen from a US Duo I sold to someone else (maybe Nat?). So, its old. It also has mucho play time on it. Then there is my PCE/CDROM2/IFU system, which is obviously years older.

The most time I spent playing CD-Rs was probably last winter, and they were all burned on a Macbook with its stock Superdrive at something like 4 or 8x since it won't go any slower. I also burned some on a Mac Mini, which also would go no slower. Play time was shared across both PCEs.

While these discs do occasionally lose tracking of an audio track, its really rare, and so do retail games sometimes. In general things haven't been problematic.

I think that even if the 1X argument was accurate (I suspect it isn't) it wouldn't matter since few people are going to want to dumpster dive for old Amigas and DOS machines capable of doing it. True 1x (as in, it takes an 30 minutes to an hour to burn a single PCE game) hasn't been possible on most computers sold in the last decade or more. You can select 1X, but it won't actually burn that slow.

I do recommend using quality discs and burners though. I'm not sure if any burner these days is as "quality" as they could be, but some are clearly shittier than others.

As for the logic of burning games in general, I say go for it. The more people do this the cheaper the real thing (which I prefer) becomes, and we end up with fewer "dumping" threads since people aren't allowed to sell CD-Rs here.

I'm not sure why, but I hate dumping threads.