Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???

[SignOfZeta]

I think I misunderstood this concept of arping that C64 fans have. I've been explaining that chords and polyphony aren't necisarity integral (ie: you're too focus on chords as in guitar chords, but chords exist in monophonicly in many types of music).

Now that I'm thinking back to what little C64 music I've heard, I think what you guys call an arpeggio is really more like vibrato. If it is an actual arp, it's an arp that uses 256th notes or some shit to approximate vibrato because vibrato doesn't exists as a hardware function on the C64's sound chip. It does, therefore, sort of sound like a guitar chord (ie: polyphonic).

[Bonknuts]

You don't need polyphony of any kind to depict a chord. The listener interpolates it.

 But your example does have polyphony. And that does have an influencing factor. But your example isn't really relative to chiptunes, since chiptunes are doing it at a much faster rate than any guitarist including this guy:

 And chiptunes are using a single channel (for an obvious reason, lack of channels to make a real chord). There's a hard cut off from note to note of the rapid succession of looped notes. That cutoff is perceived by the listener. It makes it even more harsh/standout.

 The listener isn't hearing a chord, else you wouldn't hear the artifacts of the low frequency note changing. If it was note changing at like 16khz or such, it'd probably sound pretty solid or close to a normal chord. It would be 'interpolated' around that point. I'm not saying the listener isn't getting or perceiving something from the rapid succession of notes that would be a chord, but at a low frequency output rate - else the method wouldn't work as it does. I'm just saying it's not a perceived 'chord'. It's something else. And that something else already has a name: arpeggio (in the chiptune context).

[SignOfZeta]

If I play three notes from a chord, one at a time, all on the same string so that there is no overlap, quarter notes, at 60bpm, it's still a chord. Polyphony is not a necessary component of a chord. Strummed guitar chords are not the only definition of "chord". This isn't a hardware/C64 thing, it's a musical thing.

I'm not sure which "example" you are referring too.

[spenoza]

My wife is a music therapist and musician (non-professional) and enjoys music theory, so I played her some of the tunes Tats posted earlier in the thread and brought her up to speed on this discussion. Her assessment is that what we are calling arpeggios (arpeggiated chords) are not at all arpeggios, but in fact tremolos. She checked her music dictionary to be sure because she suspected tremolo might be tied to violin bowing technique (her primary instrument), but it applied to vocal technique as well and we both suspect can be cross-applied to this electronic case as well. Tremolo is, in vocal terms, a rapid, fluttering change of pitch, back and forth between 2 pitches.

She also agrees that it, by and large, sounds like ass, though she confesses that it might be a matter of lack of acclimation. I do not believe she cares to acquire this particular taste, though, as the rewards are not nearly as pleasant as, say, acquiring a taste for good stout.

[esteban]

...She also agrees that it, by and large, sounds like ass, though she confesses that it might be a matter of lack of acclimation. I do not believe she cares to acquire this particular taste, though, as the rewards are not nearly as pleasant as, say, acquiring a taste for good stout.

I love your wife . But, as we all know, alcohol and arpeggios are not mutually exclusive.

[Bonknuts]

My wife is a music therapist and musician (non-professional) and enjoys music theory, so I played her some of the tunes Tats posted earlier in the thread and brought her up to speed on this discussion. Her assessment is that what we are calling arpeggios (arpeggiated chords) are not at all arpeggios, but in fact tremolos. She checked her music dictionary to be sure because she suspected tremolo might be tied to violin bowing technique (her primary instrument), but it applied to vocal technique as well and we both suspect can be cross-applied to this electronic case as well. Tremolo is, in vocal terms, a rapid, fluttering change of pitch, back and forth between 2 pitches.

She also agrees that it, by and large, sounds like ass, though she confesses that it might be a matter of lack of acclimation. I do not believe she cares to acquire this particular taste, though, as the rewards are not nearly as pleasant as, say, acquiring a taste for good stout.

 Heh. Definitions get tricky. Tremolo in the modern sense (not just chiptunes) is the variation of the strength of volume over a played note. In extreme case, note on/off. Usually repeated on the same note. The 'trem bar' on electric guitars is incorrectly named, for instance. What is does is bending of a pitch: vibrato. Though they got the name right for the FX pedal effect (which is a true tremolo effect). Definitions for specific instruments and/or classical instruments are more.. messy in definition. Cause sometimes the effect also has the characteristics of other effects/method as a result. But the name doesn't change. Just look at classic guitar tremolo playing VS electric guitar tremolo FX pedal. Nothing alike. The name, applied to a specific instrument, can be almost completely different in design and nature. Chiptune trackers have tremolo support and if you tried to tell a chiptune composer than his/her arpeggio effect is a tremolo effect: they'll give you a sideways look.

If I play three notes from a chord, one at a time, all on the same string so that there is no overlap, quarter notes, at 60bpm, it's still a chord.

 Well, then that's your liberal definition of a chord. That's an arpeggiated chord, not a chord. They sound nothing alike (and even more different in the chiptune context because... I'm sick of repeating myself). This discussion is getting out of context. I'll save myself the aggravation not continuing this conversation with you.

[ccovell]

FACT:  The C64 has no music that can compete with the likes of Blaster Master, Batman, Mega Man 2, etc etc etc.

It's apples and oranges, dude.  While MM2's songs might be great, they also loop in 30 seconds.  The C64 is full of (yeah, okay, call it "prog-rock") compositions that go on for 10 or 15 minutes.  What other game system did that before CD-ROM music came around?

Example:   (listen all the way to the end; I've cut the first 6 minutes to cater to your attention span.)  The Last Ninja.  Fewer arpeggios than most.  Atmosphere rivaling Ninja Spirit!

Both games, incidentally, appeared on the NES and sound like total ass there.

Also: Tim Follin.  More flutey, less arpy:

[nodtveidt]

Don't forget about Wally Beben's "Tetris" music... it goes like 20+ minutes before it loops. I'm listening to it right now. 13 minutes in and it hasn't looped yet...

And actually... arpeggio really is the correct musical term, not tremolo. The difference is that an arpeggio's purpose is to construct a chord out of individual notes, whereas a tremolo is a series of individual notes not intended to form a chord but rather a sequence. Of course, you also have to know when you're hearing a tremolo and when you're hearing an arpeggio, as both are used in C64 sidtunes. Arpeggios are much more common though. Someone strumming a muted chord on a guitar slow enough to hear each note played yet fast enough to still recognize the chord as-is might be considered an arpeggio. A tremolo, on the other hand, would be something along the lines of fretboard tapping... notes played in rapid reiteration. And Bonknuts is right... that damn thing on an electric that some call a "tremolo bar" is sooooo wrongly named... it's vibrato, not tremolo. "Vibrato bar" is a much more accurate term. But most people just call it a "whammy bar" anyways, so it doesn't matter.

I study music theory and I have deep respect for anyone else who does.

EDIT: 25 minutes into Tetris and still no loop... though it's playing at PAL speed, which does make it a little slower.

EDIT2: And finally, at 26:10, it looped.

[SignOfZeta]

Well, then that's your liberal definition of a chord. That's an arpeggiated chord, not a chord.

Music is a pretty well studied art form. I wouldn't dare to invent definitions of anything. Talk to a music instructor or just Wiki it. I'm not being "liberal". A chord is not an inherently polyphonic thing.

Anyway...

Something important here to understand is that the terms like tremolo and vibrato and arpeggio were invented to describe techniques used in the music that was being made at that time, with the instruments that were being used at that time. A C64 might very well be arping, but if its only arping two notes and its doing it at a really high frequency then the difference between that and vibrato is...well, there isn't much of one, in practical terms. I guess if the rate is high enough and there are 3 notes or more it could be said that its emulating a strummed, polyphonic guitar chord. Even if it doesn't sound exactly like it, the sensation is similar. Personally, I'd like to think it was its own thing. Not everything has a historical precedent.

BTW, I agree with the awesomeness of the C64 prog rock compositions. So cool.

[spenoza]

Well, either way, what's being done on the C64 resembles vocal tremolo more than an arpeggio (according to the Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music). I would argue that it is probably truly neither. Even general music terms are often linked to an instrument or genre. It seems that electronically generated music does not have the kind of robust technical vocabulary. For example, what we've been calling arps are all attack and no body or close, due to the nature of the extremely rapid repetition and the nature of the waveform of the notes. There is no sustain from residual vibration as you would have on a stringed or percussion instrument. We're talking about a unique "instrument" which needs its own language to describe what it's doing. Only the most basic terms already established will really apply because those terms are so tied to the physicality of human instruments.

*later edit* It just occurred to me that the "arping" also sounds a lot like trilling, like on a flute. It's just a VERY extended trill in some ways. Maybe we need to call it a "trilpeggolo".

[ccovell]

I'm no music student, but I thought a trill was rapid switching between only two notes (as in Legendary Axe II) while arpeggio was cycling between 3 (or more) notes?

[spenoza]

If we generate a hybrid term encompassing all the different situations that this particular sound manipulation contains aspects of, we avoid the fact that this discussion has devolved to something largely semantic.

[Joe Redifer]

EDIT2: And finally, at 26:10, it looped.

That's pathetic!  REAL music doesn't loop for at least 5 days.  26 minutes is just sad.  What a sad little musician who can only come up with 26 minutes of material for a single song.

[ccovell]

REAL music doesn't loop for at least 5 days.

5 days?  Don't make me laugh!  GOD unleashed his creativity for 6 days plus!

[sunteam_paul]

REAL music doesn't loop for at least 5 days.

5 days?  Don't make me laugh!  GOD unleashed his creativity for 6 days plus!

THIS is real music.