Author Topic: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix  (Read 23913 times)

ogre

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #225 on: March 09, 2010, 09:51:53 AM »
I just use regular old cheap rubbing alcohol 90%. You can get other flux cleaners but I have found them to be no more effective.

kattare

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #226 on: March 09, 2010, 12:03:12 PM »
Alcohol and Q-Tips for me.
Webhost by day, (www.kattare.com) retro gamer by night.

agt_dale_cooper

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #227 on: May 27, 2010, 11:12:47 AM »
For ADCPM audio (sourced by U502), come out mono through cap c652 to passive filter (uses c623), to one-half of U503 amp  , out U503 (cap 653) through passive filter (uses c621) to other-half of U503, into U504 audio gate (both channels), continue as above.

Dear God, I'm working on ANOTHER of these failed frelling Duos.  Got one as parts off some guy on the TurboList, but has no ADPCM, even after recapping most of the board in that vicinity.
Board does play Redbook, does play in-game.
ADPCM test vehicle is "Gate/Bonk 1/Bonk 2" disc...when you first boot it, Bonk comes out in the spotlight and TALKS....you see the quote on screen, but there is "Bonk-ese" that plays in the background when the quotes come on the screen:
Screen text "Me Bonk" - ADPCM plays "Ooga Bonk"
Screen text "You Player" - ADPCM plays "Dabba Dooba"
Screen text "We Play" - ADPCM plays "Ooga Mooga"
[Apologies to Bonk if I've spelled his words incorrectly :)  ]

Assuming the recap was successful, how do we test the surface mount components mentioned by Charlie?
I'm looking specifically at:
C652 (bottom of board, surface mount)
C623 ("""")
C621 (top of board, surface mount)
I'm looking to test ALL caps before resorting to replacement of the M5205.

Speaking of, anybody have intelligent solutions for doing this?  Chip lifters or something?  A really tiny spatula?  What's proper methodology for doing something like this?

Duo_R

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #228 on: May 28, 2010, 04:56:58 AM »
ok I am beginning to suspect the BU4053BF chip for my ADPCM problems and I think I found a more current replacement:

BU4053BCF

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/36348/ROHM/BU4053BCF.html


Does anyone know how to apply the test circuits listed in the PDF? Is it possible that we can run these tests to determine if the stock chip is functioning properly?
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Charlie

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #229 on: May 30, 2010, 03:05:40 AM »
There are two "easy" ways to test this chip, without even unsoldering it.  But "easy" doesn't mean simple or practical.

This chip is simply an electronic switch.  All it does is connect some input signal to an output line.  But, it does that under strict control.  You can either:
1. Monitor those control signals, use the data sheet to determine what the chip should do to the output line, then check if it has, in fact, done that.
2. Temporarily make the switch connections yourself; that is, "short" the input to the output.

Method #1 is dependent upon the system manipulating the controls signals, which means you have no direct control over them.  The difficulty here is that you are at the mercy of whatever the configuration the game controls, with, of course, any exceptions that can be configured with some kind of operator options.  Basically, you are saying "ok, with the controls inputs set as X (which is outside my control), the signal I see on Y should come out Z.  Let me check that".  You'll need to use the data sheet to derermine X, Y and Z.  Again, you have no control over X, and therefore no way to positively guarantee you have checked all inputs/output, since all possible combinations may not necessarily be functional for that game.  By the way, do you have appropriate test equipment?  An oscilloscope is ideal, but generally not part of your gaming system.
A VOM (multimeter) may work, if it is sensitive enough to detect very small sound signals.

Method #2 is much easier, and only requires a short piece of jumper wire.  However, it is much more prone to error, which can equate to destroying the chip.  In this method, you basically make the electronic connection yourself.  If the sound suddenly starts working, you now have a clue (Note: if this DOES work, it DOES NOT follow that the chip is bad.....this is only another clue).  The problem with this is that you don't know what input signal is supposed to connect with what output signal.  Generally, this is not a problem in terms of hurting the chip...just make very, very sure you are connecting inputs to outputs, and not to power or ground.  Also, you must realize that you are likely to get strange sounds, because you will be connecting a signal that the game has turned off, and forced that signal on.  However, you are not necessarily looking for correct sound in the first place...you are testing to see whether there is any sound at all.

Charlie

Duo_R

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #230 on: May 30, 2010, 03:36:24 AM »
what pins are jumped for method 2?
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agt_dale_cooper

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #231 on: May 31, 2010, 08:42:14 AM »
FINALLY got some love out of my PAIR of ailing PCE Duos...
Had one (mentioned earlier in this thread, months ago) that's been sitting around doing nothing.....ADPCM worked, but no Redbook.
Bought another off a dude on the TurboList as parts.....Redbook works, but no ADPCM.

Pulled the M5205 off both units, switched out their respective M5205s.  Used a socket to facilitate easier testing in the future:  Radio Shack 276-1992, $0.48.  Soldered the socket down, stuck the working 5205 into it, and Bonk talks.  NICE!!!

Methodology/tools used:
Radio Shack 45 watt desoldering iron/bulb, P/N 64-2060:  http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062731
Desoldered all 18 pins, sucking solder up with above product.  This thing is HOT, don't let it sit on your chip's leg while you answer the phone.  Excessive heat applied directly to any chip will fry it's little guts.

Once all 18 pins were reasonably clean, plugged in the Weller WM120 12W:  http://www.frys.com/product/64252?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
Using MP131 tip:  http://www.frys.com/product/64311?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG (comes with the unit above)

Grabbed the chip (still stuck in place at this point) with these black tweezer-looking things, Radio Shack 276-1581:  http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103244
Suprisingly handy....allows you to maintain pretty much consistent withdrawal pressure on the chip.

Flipped motherboard over, heated individual pins that appeared to still be holding on to the board, chip came off easily.

Rinse and repeat for donor board.

Install socket mentioned above, RS 276-1992....the divot in the end of it goes towards the heatsinks.  Installing this socket also keeps you from overheating the chip itself while soldering (you're soldering socket instead directly on chip), provided you didn't already with the desoldering iron above.  Use the WM120/MP131 combo to solder it in place...stick the thing onto the board, solder.  Heat each leg protruding through the board, touch with solder, should be sufficient if you're connecting PCB pads and socket legs.

Insert M5205 into socket, divot in end of chip goes towards the heatsinks.  The chip should press down into the socket...if it doesn't, clean your chip legs for ease of insertion.  NO NEED TO SOLDER CHIP INTO PLACE.

Reinstall board into machine, test.  If Bonk talks, you're stoked.  Sell it quickly.   :-"

Fortunately for me, this simple switch worked....now it's onto installing the region switch...urgh.  [Kynar 30 gauge + Radio Shack 276-1570 + 82MS2R3 slide switch = bliss...]

Still looking for commentary on how to test the surface-mount caps mentioned earlier on this page......can't test them in-circuit, pulling them off the board is the only way...perhaps if Charlie can come up with recommended values for these guys in the ADPCM circuit, this can help Duo_R with his 'already replaced the chip' dilemma.

agt_dale_cooper

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #232 on: May 31, 2010, 01:58:13 PM »
Let it be it known today, May 31, 2010, "Memorial Day" here in the United States of America, that PC Engine Duo serial number 1X146474A gave it's life so that others of it's kind might live.
On a day where we all remember and honor our dead, so shall 1X146474A be remembered and honored.
 :clap:

Duo_R

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #233 on: June 01, 2010, 10:19:54 AM »
Dale did the Duo get sacrificed in vain?
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Charlie

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #234 on: June 05, 2010, 01:52:21 AM »
==>"what pins are jumped for method 2? "<<=

Answer already in my previous post:
==>"You'll need to use the data sheet to derermine X, Y and Z"<==

(And, yes, I know I spelled "determine" incorrectly)

You yourself already posted the source for the previously mentioned data sheet.  It is infintely more practical to look at that, than it is to type out four paragraphs of text to describe the block diagrams and flowcharts.

----------------------------------------------------
==>"perhaps if Charlie can come up with recommended values for these guys in the ADPCM circuit"<==

Gotta dig through the notes, see what I can do about getting ANY data about the ADPCM circuit.  However, I suspect that there is a significant amount of stuff in that entire section.....if you can narrow down to anything specific you need, that would help. 

Back later,

Charlie


Charlie

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #235 on: June 05, 2010, 02:18:21 AM »
Back here, for a quickie.
Checked through a few of the previous posts we have had about this problem.  Do a search for "U503" and you will get a lot of data buried in two different threads.  True, that is not ALL the data.  However, the data that IS posted is the most significant for troubleshooting; what is missing is stuff that has a low probability (but not zero!) of causing the problem.  If you have tried all the stuff already listed in those posts, let me know and we'll go further.  However, be aware that, if we have to dig deeper, it means we need more minute details and will probably get complex to describe and more frustrating to analyze.  (Unless you have an electronics lab, in which case you probably already fixed it!!!)

Let's hope the failure is on the analog side, and not the digital side!

Charlie

agt_dale_cooper

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #236 on: June 05, 2010, 08:39:34 AM »
For ADCPM audio (sourced by U502), come out mono through cap c652 to passive filter (uses c623), to one-half of U503 amp  , out U503 (cap 653) through passive filter (uses c621) to other-half of U503, into U504 audio gate (both channels), continue as above.

Assuming the recap was successful, how do we test the surface mount components mentioned by Charlie?
I'm looking specifically at:
C652 (bottom of board, surface mount)
C623 ("""")
C621 (top of board, surface mount)

C652, C623 and C621 are all part of the circuit described by Charlie in first quote.  These are SURFACE MOUNT, and in order to test them, you need to remove them at least partially from the board.  As I don't know specifically what the frell they are, I was looking for Charlie to provide insight:
1)  What they are (diodes, capacitors, etc.)
2)  Possible part numbers if replacement is needed
3)  Test values for working unit, or multimeter SETTINGS to test.  Have multimeter, will test, once I figure out how.  Will post values for others' reference, might be helpful in analyzing Duo_R's "already replaced the M5205" problem.  If one of these surface mount cats have blown, would presumably account for unit's behavior.

Duo_R, I can't locate "BU4053BF".....give me an approximate physical location, I'll pull mine from my leftover parts (1X146474A from above) and send to you if needed.  Bear in mind, however, that the ADPCM on this unit did NOT work.....yours for the taking if you feel like testing with it, though.  Board is parts, and I'm gonna toss it soon.

Charlie

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #237 on: June 05, 2010, 12:59:01 PM »
C652 is 0.1 uf (microfarads)
C623 is 0.22 uf (microfarads)
C653 is 10uf, 16V
C621 is.....I have no notes on that one, nor C622.  (But see end of post)

First question: is the capacitor in question a series path from point A to point B, or a bypass path from point A to ground?  For the above:
C652 is series, point A to point B
C623 is bypass, point A to ground
C653 is series, point A to point B
C621 is bypass, point A to ground
C622 is series, point A to point B
 
Bypass caps usually mean the cap can be temporarily removed; it will allow the circuit to work, but not necessarily properly or the most efficiently.  However, if that cap is preventing the proper function completely, removing it and finding that you now get a partial circuit function is certainly a key indicator!

Series cap usually mean the cap absolutely must work for the circuit to work.  You want to check these caps after you have eliminated any bypass caps as the problem.  Reasons for that is, the series cap needs a bit more in-depth analysis.  So, do the easier bypass caps first.  In the case of the ASPCM circuit, both C623 and C621 can be removed for this analysis.  Keep track of which is which, and remember to reinstall (or replace) them later!!!!

So, the next step is the series caps, right?  Yes,.....but there is a little bonus for us in this circuit; C622 is used as feedback, which means the circuit can probably operate without it!  So go ahead and remove it, too.  Again, remember to reinstall/replace.

Since you have (presumably) removed the bypass caps, do a little testing...
Start with the simplest analysis first: A capacitor is going to be shorted or open.  You want to check for both of these errors; if you can eliminate both of these possibilities, then assume it's good (NOT a guarantee, but a reasonable bet for first level troubleshooting).

[What about testing for a "leaky" cap?  That's why I said "simplest analysis first".  Determining if a cap is leaky can require a bit more work (unless of course you see electrolyte all over the board!), and the short/open checks can help you toward this.]

Now what?......
You want to check if the cap is shorted or open.  You need to apply both tests, as you can get an ambiguous result and will need both data points to eliminate the ambiguity.   Make a chart for each cap, check:
1. With power off, resistance from first pin to ground
2. With power off, resistance from second pin to ground
3. With power on and no ADPCM audio active, DC voltage on first pin relative to ground
4. With power on  and no ADPCM audio active, DC voltage on second pin relative to ground
5. With power on and ADPCM audio active, AC voltage on first pin relative to ground
6. With power on and ADPCM audio active, AC voltage on second pin relative to ground
Note that, for 5 & 6, you may be looking for a few hundredths of a volt, so you need to use the most sensitive scale on the meter, and make sure you are NOT getting a false reading caused by any nearby electric/electronic interference.

Now you need to use the tool between your ears:

If the cap is shorted, then the DC voltage will be the same on both it's pins.  Of course, be careful that the cap doesn't, by coincidence, connect two points that happen to actually have the same DC voltage.   Usually, however, the whole point of the cap is specifically intended to keep the two voltages separate, so, if the DC voltages are different, assume the cap is not shorted. 
 
If the cap is open, you will certainly have different DC voltages on it's pins (again, unless the circuits in use happen to have the same voltage). But a good cap will have this too, so check the AC voltages.  You should have the same on both sides; that's the caps job, to get the signal from point A to point B.  We will assume that point B is, itself, not the problem.  If it looks like the cap IS open, it is safe to temporarily connect a second, new cap into the circuit...without having to remove the original, suspect cap.  Just be sure to observe polarity, if any.

Shortcut:
In the case of the ADPCM circuit, U503 is used as a two-stage amplifier filter.  This means that pin 1 has a much more powerful ADCPM signal than U502 or any parts in-between. So, you could try just measuring the AC voltage on pin 1, and compare the value of ADCPM audio off with the value of ADCPM on.  But I guess you have done that, otherwise you would not be concentrating on the actual capacitors.  However, as we have shown, C652 (and C653, which you did not mention) are the only two critical caps in this circuit.  And if you do the simple short test (same DC voltage on both pins), and the simple open test (connect a second known-good capacitor across them), testing this circuit is easy.

As for C621 and C622:
I mentioned that C622 could PROBABLY be removed and the circuit could still work.  This is because both of these caps are used as "filter elements" in an "active filter".  This is a fancy way of saying they help "shape" the sound, kind of like an equalizer is used for audio systems.  Of course, this equalizer only has one setting.  But, without those caps, this equalizer circuit MAY have characteristics that, while still functioning properly, act like it isn't.  So removing C622 if it is good (but you don't know that) has a small chance of actually making things appear worse. 

As for the values, that depends upon what effect the equalizer is supposed to have; that is, what the audio is actually supposed to sound like.  For test purposes, I would remove them both until you have (probably poorly) working audio, then reinstall them one at a time as a test.

Charlie

chany60126

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #238 on: June 11, 2010, 09:00:04 AM »
Hey Guys,

I could really use your help. This is probably a stupid question, but do you need a 4.5 MM gamebit to open up a US Duo?? I used the one recommended on page 4 of this thread from

http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/NUS-45MM.html

and it won't fit on the screw!! Did I purchase the wrong one??
SignofZeta: What a quintessentially PCEFX thread. Someone complains about nothing, multiple Bible-length posts discussing who's a bigger a$$hole follow. You're both pretty big a$$holes. Let's call it a tie.

agt_dale_cooper

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Re: REPAIR GUIDE - TurboDuo: Sound Fix
« Reply #239 on: June 11, 2010, 09:28:19 AM »
4.5mm gamebit is standard for the USA Turbo Duo.  Top of screw is CONVEX.
Torx Security T10 is standard for the Japanese Turbo Duo.  Top of screw is concave.

If your 4.5mm doesn't fit, perhaps they sent a 3.8mm by mistake.
Got a NES or SNES cart kicking around the house?  They're put together with either flat head (NES) or 3.8mm (NES/SNES) screws.
Got a Genesis cart around the house?  They're put together with either philips or 4.5mm screws.

Check your screw bit against the NES/SNES/Genesis carts to determine it's size.  If this doesn't work, take a GOOD picture of your screw, and we'll collectively figure it out for you.