Author Topic: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax  (Read 872 times)

sunteam_paul

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4732
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2011, 09:00:32 AM »
Better question: which emulators let you turn off the sprite and BG layers?

Magic Engine.


The scrolling in Ys III is choppy because they are using only BG tiles and not sprites. Every 8 pixels (1 tile) the distant 'layer' shifts to mimic parallax. Most games use sprites for overlapped parallax, but some use animated tiles which look smoother, but allow for less variety (more of a pattern effect usually.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 09:07:20 AM by sunteam_paul »
The PC Engine Software Bible
Quote from: Tatsujin
I just felt in a hole!

Keranu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9054
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2011, 09:31:09 AM »
That's what I always assumed, that they never optimized for the superior hardware, that it was a straight port.

At least it happened with Ys III instead of one of Falcom's better games.

The same problem is met in Ys 2 (in the belfry, the background scrolling is just as shitty as Ys III's).
Strangely enough it's even present at the end of Ys IV, right before you fight the final boss. More strange considering Ys IV had areas with silky smooth parallax!
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

nat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7085
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2011, 01:29:06 PM »
That's what I always assumed, that they never optimized for the superior hardware, that it was a straight port.

At least it happened with Ys III instead of one of Falcom's better games.

The same problem is met in Ys 2 (in the belfry, the background scrolling is just as shitty as Ys III's).
Strangely enough it's even present at the end of Ys IV, right before you fight the final boss. More strange considering Ys IV had areas with silky smooth parallax!

So does Ys III, in certain areas. The game jumps back and forth between 30 and 60 FPS throughout.

ParanoiaDragon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4619
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2011, 04:46:15 PM »
I do recall there being area's where sprites are used in Ys 3.  Well, atleast for the 1st layer.  In the Elderm Mountains(or whatever there called in the Turbo version), alot of the pointed rocky area's are actually squared off(which can be important for doing paralax), with small sprites finishing off the look of the rocks, so that they don't look square.  This overlaps the 2nd BG of the clouds.  And there are some fairly smooth area's.  I mainly think of the Alcaino Ruins before you go in the lava area, there's some pretty smooth looking paralax used there.

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2011, 11:56:50 AM »
There are definitely areas in Ys 3 where sprites are used as BG graphics as I remember seeing them flicker/tear as Adol jumped around like a monkey killing things.

Mathius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6006
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2011, 09:38:58 AM »
All this makes me wish that Falcom took the time to re-build Ys III from the ground up to take advantage of the systems capabilities, of which there are many obviously. :) But, in usual Falcom style they optimize their games to be more atmospheric monsters than graphical beasts. Which, I guess is a good tradeoff now that I think about it.
F@ck Ebay Club member since 2010
Switch Friend Code: SW-2346-3388-5406

ParanoiaDragon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4619
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2011, 02:01:35 PM »
All this makes me wish that Falcom took the time to re-build Ys III from the ground up to take advantage of the systems capabilities, of which there are many obviously. :) But, in usual Falcom style they optimize their games to be more atmospheric monsters than graphical beasts. Which, I guess is a good tradeoff now that I think about it.

Are you talking about Falcom's original work on Ys 3 for the PC-88?  Hudson was responsible for the TG version, the only games Falcom did themselves for the TG were the 2 Legend of Xanadu games(of which NEC published the first one).

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2011, 02:34:31 PM »
All this makes me wish that Falcom took the time to re-build Ys III from the ground up to take advantage of the systems capabilities, of which there are many obviously. :) But, in usual Falcom style they optimize their games to be more atmospheric monsters than graphical beasts. Which, I guess is a good tradeoff now that I think about it.

Are you talking about Falcom's original work on Ys 3 for the PC-88?  Hudson was responsible for the TG version, the only games Falcom did themselves for the TG were the 2 Legend of Xanadu games(of which NEC published the first one).

At least the Ys and Popful Mail ports had the color/shading drastically improved. Ys III is the only game I'm disappointed with parallax-wise. I'd rather it had less layering and be 60fps throughout. Still looks and plays cool though. The Famicom version is my favorite to play (music kicks ass too) and it has no parallax (graphics still hold up well to the 16-bit ports though). :)
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

Mathius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6006
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2011, 02:46:16 PM »
Really??? I had no idea Hudson were responsible for the ports. Makes sense though since they are mentioned in the splash screen.
F@ck Ebay Club member since 2010
Switch Friend Code: SW-2346-3388-5406

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2011, 03:05:18 PM »
Really??? I had no idea Hudson were responsible for the ports. Makes sense though since they are mentioned in the splash screen.

Same deal with the Dragon Slayer games.
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

Bonknuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3292
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2011, 05:38:22 PM »
Ys III uses character scrolling (or tile scrolling). It was very common on the MSX and Japaneses PC computers. They use sprites to overlay some of the hard edges to give them a better look. Otherwise there would be a lot more data to mess around with, or less detail. The game does run in mid res mode, so that makes the scrolling theoretically a little smoother than if it was in low res mode. But screen isn't actually scrolling. No scroll registers. It's just rebuilding the tilemap every frame. And since the tiles are 8 pixels wide, the game would move pretty damn fast if it were 60fps. I thought it was a noble effort considering this was a CD 2.0 game with limited ram for any type of dynamic tiles or such. Could be worse. Could be just as bland looking (exactly as it is) but with no parallax. For what it is, and once you get used to it, it's not bad. Strangely enough, there are a few parts in Ys III were they switch over to a normal scrolling routine and it looks smooth. I think that was a bad idea on there part. It just reminds you of how choppy the other areas are once you transition into them.

 Ninja Gaiden on the other hand is just wrong. I don't know wtf they were thinking on that one.

Mathius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6006
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2011, 06:31:17 PM »
Ninja Gaiden on the other hand is just wrong. I don't know wtf they were thinking on that one.

Like stated before it seems that both games' scroll the opposite way we would normally see in parallax. Very unnerving, and so far not yet explained. :wink:

And for the record I love both these games! Ys III has music that almost surpasses its big brother, and Ninja Gaiden has its unique, tight, responsive gameplay, and its music isn't half bad either once you get past the first stage.
F@ck Ebay Club member since 2010
Switch Friend Code: SW-2346-3388-5406

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2011, 03:44:06 AM »
Ninja Gaiden on the other hand is just wrong. I don't know wtf they were thinking on that one.

Like stated before it seems that both games' scroll the opposite way we would normally see in parallax. Very unnerving, and so far not yet explained. :wink:

And for the record I love both these games! Ys III has music that almost surpasses its big brother, and Ninja Gaiden has its unique, tight, responsive gameplay, and its music isn't half bad either once you get past the first stage.

Did any area of Ys III other than the town scroll backwards? There's no technical explanation why either game was made the way they were. It's just weak programming with some mistakes. There's no limit to how bad a game can be made. A better question would be "how did some of those many games with 'impossible on PCE' parallax do it?"
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

Mathius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6006
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2011, 03:49:25 AM »
Haha that would be a much better question! :lol:
F@ck Ebay Club member since 2010
Switch Friend Code: SW-2346-3388-5406

grahf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
Re: Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2011, 05:03:32 AM »
It's actually scrolling so fast and smooth that it only appears to scroll backwards, much like when you look at the wheels of a moving car :D