Author Topic: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD  (Read 2056 times)

Joe Redifer

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2011, 10:45:50 AM »
Quote from: Ragtime

Was it necessary to drop atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, again killing hundreds of thousands?


It's easy to sit back and ask questions like that these days when hindsight is 20/20.  But the fact of the matter is that the Japanese were warned of our atomic bomb.  After we dropped the first one, their pride would not allow them to surrender even though we told them to or face another a-bomb dropping.  After the 2nd, they finally gave in.

Yes, war is bad and I am not saying how great it is that people die.  But people do die in wars, lots of them.  It's what people do (go to war).  I'm at the point where I almost think it is kind of natural for man to war to keep the population in check.  Of course, I'm pulling that out of my ass, but we've gone to war ever since we were able to do so and I don't think it's a switch that can just be turned off cold turkey.

Look at teh drama that happens on this and many forums.  When a conflict occurs, it attracts a lot of people and "dealing" with said conflict you are involved in can be very hard to resist.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 10:48:09 AM by Joe Redifer »

turbogrfxfan

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2011, 11:06:33 AM »
Very good point
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rag-time4

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2011, 09:37:16 AM »
Quote from: Ragtime

Was it necessary to drop atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, again killing hundreds of thousands?



It's easy to sit back and ask questions like that these days when hindsight is 20/20.  But the fact of the matter is that the Japanese were warned of our atomic bomb.  After we dropped the first one, their pride would not allow them to surrender even though we told them to or face another a-bomb dropping.  After the 2nd, they finally gave in.

Yes, war is bad and I am not saying how great it is that people die.  But people do die in wars, lots of them.  It's what people do (go to war).  I'm at the point where I almost think it is kind of natural for man to war to keep the population in check.  Of course, I'm pulling that out of my ass, but we've gone to war ever since we were able to do so and I don't think it's a switch that can just be turned off cold turkey.

Look at teh drama that happens on this and many forums.  When a conflict occurs, it attracts a lot of people and "dealing" with said conflict you are involved in can be very hard to resist.
I appreciate your comments on war, but the one thing I will retort with is this: I disagree with your lumping all of 'the Japanese' together rhetorically. The other fact of the matter is that the Japanese government at that time was a dictatorship, and the civilians targeted by the U.S. atomic bombs (and the U.S. firebombings) had nothing to do with the dicision making process.

Yeah and these same lame f*ckin a$$holes will say bin laden is still alive even though they did a dna test. You can say the sky is blue and they would say its not. Grow the f*ck up.
They would also say that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, so we need to go in an kill him and all his children,at great cost to Iraqi civilians and it could turn out to be nothing but a lie.

Because I have a job. :)  Believe me, I was celebrating last night when I heard the news.

It's not a street gang warfare mentality.  It's being happy that an evil man who has killed many innocent Americans is now dead.

I can't believe I even need to explain this.  Would you have said the same thing when Hitler died if you were around then?
Hitler was defeated, at the cost of
. Was it really necessary to firebomb civilian targets in Germany and Japan, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people living under dictatorships? Was it necessary to drop atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, again killing hundreds of thousands?

Means to an end you may say, but I'm sure Hitler would say the same, so in the end what's the difference?

 Let's not forget our "ally" Stalin that was responsible for more deaths than Hitler ;)

Have you ever read about both the civilian, and soldier death estimates of a mainland Japan invasion?  While the atomic bombs can be debated forever, a direct invasion would have been catastrophic on a MUCH higher bodycount.  War has def changed in the last 60+ years...many things  done in the past are no longer "acceptable/necessary."


To be honest Nec, no, I don't think I have ever read anything on death estimates of a mainland Japan invasion. I can, however, tell you that in the upper division U.S. history course I took on the period, an entire lecture and discussion day was dedicated to the debate about the atomic bombing, so I'm well aware of the argument.

Have you ever read anything on the Hague conventions, which were international treaties governing the laws of war through World War II, which were used as the legal basis for the war crimes trials of captured Nazi leaders? In 1963, a Japanese court ruled that the atomic bombings in Japan were violations of international law at the time they took place.

My point with all of this is that vilifying people like Hitler and Osama Bin Laden while at the same time giving war profiteers based in the U.S. and her allies a free pass is extremely hypocritical. I think that celebrating the death of Osama Bin Laden, when it's common knowledge that he was actually propped up by U.S. support in the first place, is unwise at best, because it reflects a lack of wisdom concerning the real movers and shakers that are behind military actions around the world.

The left-leaning regime in Afghanistan that Osama Bin Laden was so violently opposed to seemed like it was doing some very positive things, particularly with regards to the role of women in society, education, etc. None of that matters, however, because they were going to give the Soviet Union more access to their strategic territory and natural resources, leaving our big mega corporations out of the loop. Therefore, supporting Osama Bin Laden was in line with "U.S. strategic interests," which to me, is merely propaganda speak for "The interests of the rich and mega-rich in the U.S."

Rather would've seen him captured alive.  I think the end result that way would've been better than satiating vengeance mentality.  That said, if he wasn't willing to surrender right away, I see no foul in sending him a bullet. 

Either way, I hope this brings some sense of closure to the families of 9/11 victims.
The Nazis killed millions of people, yet when possible, their leaders were captured and put on trial. I think a trial of Osama Bin Laden would have been very productive, particularly because it may have led to more transparency with regard to 9/11. I think that if in fact Osama Bin Laden was guilty of masterminding 9/11, and convicted, it would be beneficial to the U.S.' image abroad.

Arkhan

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2011, 09:46:01 AM »
Well I heard Bin Ladle was reaching for his gat, so they capped him.

Its a thugs life, niggas.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
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rag-time4

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2011, 09:51:12 AM »
Well I heard Bin Ladle was reaching for his gat, so they capped him.

Its a thugs life, niggas.
That was what President Obama said at first, but new reports are saying that Osama Bin Laden was unarmed

Joe Redifer

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2011, 09:51:55 AM »
Denis Leary tweeted it best:

"Michael Moore thinks we should have captured Bin Laden.  Yeah - like he was a f*cking butterfly."


Anyway, it may be easy for you to armchair quarterback this one,Ragtime, but you weren't there.

Arkhan

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2011, 10:01:45 AM »
Well I heard Bin Ladle was reaching for his gat, so they capped him.

Its a thugs life, niggas.
That was what President Obama said at first, but new reports are saying that Osama Bin Laden was unarmed


its stupidity like that that gets you shanked when you aren't looking, or blown up.

Hes some kind of terrorist dickhead.  Assume hes armed.  I dont care if hes reaching for a frigging breath mint.  He could have it laced with explosives.  The tic-tac box could be wired to torch the place.

If the guy didn't see troops rolling in and immediately throw his arms up and then lay face down on the dirt, he was probably asking to get blasted.  I wouldn't take any chances seeing if the shmuck is going to comply.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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nectarsis

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2011, 10:15:58 AM »

 In 1963, a Japanese court ruled that the atomic bombings in Japan were violations of international law at the time they took place.




LOL I'm sorry this made me LMAO.  REALLY...you're going to use a JAPANESE court case as "proof"?   The country that to this day warps history they teach, and denies/downplays most of the atrocities, etc. THEY committed in WWII.   Even now (and even more so in 1963) there is NO way they would EVER rule in any way that it was legal/"they had it coming", etc.
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rag-time4

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2011, 10:18:26 AM »
 
Denis Leary tweeted it best:

"Michael Moore thinks we should have captured Bin Laden.  Yeah - like he was a f*cking butterfly."


Anyway, it may be easy for you to armchair quarterback this one,Ragtime, but you weren't there.
I don't think it's fair to say that I'm armchair quarterbacking. I'm not all up in arms about it, but I do feel that it's right to be critical about whether or not they did the right thing. I do think that capturing him and putting him on trial would have been a superior outcome.


 In 1963, a Japanese court ruled that the atomic bombings in Japan were violations of international law at the time they took place.




LOL I'm sorry this made me LMAO.  REALLY...you're going to use a JAPANESE court case as "proof"?   The country that to this day warps history they teach, and denies/downplays most of the atrocities, etc. THEY committed in WWII.   Even now (and even more so in 1963) there is NO way they would EVER rule in any way that it was legal/"they had it coming", etc.
Nec, if you're advancing the argument that Japanese courts are inferior to U.S. courts, I disagree with you. Furthermore, based on my understanding of the Hague conventions, I agree with the ruling of the Japanese court on the matter of the legality of the atomic bombing of civilians. I would take it a step further and add that the firebombings were also violations of international law.

I agree with you though when it comes to the presentation of history in Japan. However, I would point out that right-wing elements in our own society are trying to eliminate diversity in our own presentation of history. The same as in Japan, where study of Japan's true history is not universally encouraged, the argument is advanced that ethnic studies in the U.S.  "promotes resentment" towards white people. So while you're right that Japan has her own issues with teaching history, so does the U.S.

By the way, I graduated from UC Davis with a minor in African-American studies, and overall it was my favorite part of my time there.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 10:40:32 AM by rag-time4 »

nodtveidt

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2011, 10:30:24 AM »
My stance on the whole thing:

Whatever.

One tyrant down, seventy million still remain... including most of the leaders of the "free world". And by leaders, I don't mean figureheads, I mean the ones actually making the decisions and giving the orders... these are almost never actual public figures.

vestcoat

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2011, 10:37:40 AM »
Denis Leary tweeted it best:

"Michael Moore thinks we should have captured Bin Laden.  Yeah - like he was a f*cking butterfly."
Yeah, human rights are a hassle.  f*ck 'em.
Quote
Anyway, it may be easy for you to armchair quarterback this one,Ragtime, but you weren't there.
Neither were you; don't pretend your argument is more valid just because you're siding with the prevailing belief (or at least the loudest one in mainstream U.S. media, everyone I've talked to in Belgium and Germany this week is shocked that we simply shot him in the head).  Discussion and analysis of conflicting news sources is a good thing.
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Black Tiger

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2011, 11:39:29 AM »
Well I heard Bin Ladle was reaching for his gat, so they capped him.

Its a thugs life, niggas.
That was what President Obama said at first, but new reports are saying that Osama Bin Laden was unarmed


The military or whoever has already said that they wouldn't have considered him unarmed and arrested him unless they found him completely naked. Sure enough, if you believe anything that the government has said, they found a couple phones and cash sewn into his clothing.

If you believe anything about what Al Qaeda has done, whether the U.S. governemt, Al Qaeda, Bin Laden or anyone else has claimed it, then the soldiers had every reason to assume that Bin Laden in particular could've detonated explosives or set off any other kinds of traps at any second with as little as the push of a button on a phone or any number of other ways. The building was clearly setup to anticipate an invasion.

It wasn't just because they thought that the guy was evil and deserved to die, or because they were just following orders, or anything else. The soldiers who moved in on him had to believe that every second he remained alive they could all die. He was much more dangerous and a legitimate threat, naked or not, without a gun in his hand in the middle of his own fortress than any kind of random "combatant" armed with a gun in the middle of a battlefield. Bin Laden had spent years convincing people of this. This wasn't some anti-government cult with some rifles holed up in a barn within America somewhere. This was a a group of suicidal terrorists/freedom fighters. Whether you're rooting for one side or the other.

It's unfortunate that any fighting or killing has ever happened between anyone throughout history. But unless you believe that the U.S. was unjust to kill in any way, any time, in any shape or form for any reason, then there's no reason to question why they admit to killing someone like Osama Bin Laden.
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nodtveidt

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2011, 12:13:54 PM »
Sociopaths are not dangerous people by themselves... they are dangerous because they command the loyalty of sometimes thousands or even millions of violent people who are willing to die for whatever cause it is. Martyrdom is a huge bonus for these people... "my legacy will live on even after I join my God in the afterlife".

The photos of the aftermath are not available to the public because the US government fears backlash from the Islamic extremists. However, I can tell you that he was shot more than once. From what I was able to find out, Osama bin Laden was hit with at least seven bullets from multiple shooters. There were other casualties as well, though not a single US soldier was even bruised, and there were no civilians harmed whatsoever. It was about as exacting as it gets... not once during GWB's reign of terror was a mission carried out with such surgical precision... not since the Clinton-commanded raid of a bunker in the former Czechoslovakia in his seventh year as President was a mission planned out and executed so flawlessly. I wasn't able to get any further information though, so I don't know if there were any prisoners taken or what else happened; it was a DOA mission and ended up with the former option multiple times. I'll keep trying to get more information, if anyone wants it.

vestcoat

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2011, 12:16:36 PM »
This was a a group of suicidal terrorists/freedom fighters.
Word.  If someone's wife lunged at me and my eighty commandos, I'd shoot him in the head too.
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Arkhan

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Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD
« Reply #59 on: May 08, 2011, 12:31:09 PM »
My stance on the whole thing:

Whatever.


lol, isn't that your stance on like every debate/loldrama we talk about? :D
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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