Did the TG16 have too many shmups?

[RR1980]

First off, the answer to you question is, "no".

Secondly, the term "shmup" is f*cking retarded. Please stop using it. Please also suspend,

"Are you working hard, or hardly working?"

"TGIF!"

"LOL" (actually spoken just like that, in a non-internet situation.

"I could care less..." (when what you actually mean is the exact opposite)

"Really? Really? Seriously? SERIOUSLY? Really? Really?" (over and over again at least 5 times a day.

no way Jose!

It's either my way or the highway!

[Arkhan]

: could the killer-app/mascot game have been a shmup?

http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/PC_Denjin.htm   

[vestcoat]

The TG had tons of awesome RPGs, they just arrived too late and most of them required the CD-Rom or Duo which were way too expensive for the average kid.

Dungeon Explorer
Double Dungeons
Neutopia
Neutopia 2
Order of the Griffon
Ys 1-2
Ys 3
Exile
Exile 2
Cosmic Fantasy 2
Might and Magic 3
Dragon Slayer
Dungeon Master
Loom
Dungeon Explorer 2

Yes, some of these belong to debatable genres, but I'll argue that roughly one-fifth of the CD games could be classified as RPGs.  Other sames like Beyond Shadowgate, Dynastic Hero, Shape Shifter, Dragon's Curse, JB Harold, etc. are also popular with RPG fans.

That said, the TG doesn't have many of the dumbed-down, turn-based, linear RPGs that tend to become wildly popular.  Like Arkhan pointed out, first-person RPGs are a bit of a puzzler for mainstream gamers.  I'd go one step further and say that the average Final Fantasy fanboy rarely gets into any of the old-school, computer-style RPGs that are closer to the D+D roots of the genre.  They're just as lost in top-down Ultima as they are in first-person Wizardry.  The whole reason Dragon Quest found mass appeal is because it was the first time game designers took all of the esoteric D+D mechanics that early, unlicensed, RPGs had stayed fairly close to and streamlined it (for better or worse).  Gone was the hour of character building.  Magic Missile become "Hurt" spell.  Slow, non-linear exploration was sacrificed for an easy-to-grasp plot and so on.  The Final Fantasy series kept the simplification and refined the concept with a more attractive combat system and epic storyline.  The only TG RPGs along these lines are CF2 and Dragon Slayer, which is why no one thinks our fairly RPG-heavy system has enough RPGs.

[Arkhan]

The first person games are definitely a different cup of tea, and Dungeon Master in particular is more like a puzzle game than an RPG.

Then the rest, some of them are pretty friggin pricey.  Even at the time, requiring Sys3.

We got hosed, pretty bad.  There needed to be more HuCard ones

[lord_cack]

.....There needed to be more HuCard ones.....

Only problem there is you then had to use a password system like:

asdrtewDSDd354@#%28
sd2#$%s321!#Fdstwedf
8==D~~o-:fdsWERFsdfs

And who wanted that?!?

[Necromancer]

We got hosed, pretty bad.  There needed to be more HuCard ones

By 'we' you must mean everyone (Turbob and PCE).  There weren't many HuCard RPGs in Japan either, and none of 'em were anywhere near as good as the better disc games.

Only problem there is you then had to use a password system like:

asdrtewDSDd354@#%28
sd2#$%s321!#Fdstwedf
8==D~~o-:fdsWERFsdfs

And who wanted that?!?

But HuCards can save too.

[SignOfZeta]

Anyone who thinks RPGs, regardless of format, would cause the TG-16 to be massively more popular evidently doesn't remember that most console RPGs at that time sold in very low numbers. Square skipped FF II-V, and every other RPG that had a Japanese release during that time. Enix skipped Dragon Quest V and, IIRC, left the US completely after Ogre Battle came out.

It really wasn't until FFVII, long after the Turbo was dead, that RPGs became mainstream enough in the US to effect the success of a system. In 1990 RPGs were basically a money loser. Think of the Genesis, which made money hand over fist. How many RPGs did it have? Not many more than the Turbo. Maybe less? The SNES, equally successful, had a couple more. I think even if you used the looser definitions of RPG to include Shining Force, the 1st person dirges, and even action RPGs like Zelda and Oasis. What are we looking at, maybe 50 RPGs during the entire lifespan of SNES and Genesis combined? And maybe 4 or 5 of them are best sellers?

Never mind this top ten list (which was compiled...how, by who?). If anything I'd say the shooters helped the system since all my friends who moved on from 16-bit ages ago probably have a better memory of Lords of Thunder than any other game.

What killed the Turbo, in addition to the high price, was that the sorts of games that eventually came to define it in Japan, the stuff it really kicked ass at, the sims, the RPGs, the anime licenses, the digital comics, this stuff...it wasn't something you could bring to the US. You'd spend 100x as much money localizing a game 1/100 as many people would want to buy. They games that did sell in the US (Madden, Mortal Kombat, Mario, Sonic) don't have very good representation on the PC Engine. Sure, the system loyalists here seem to think Blue Blink is as good as Sonic 2, but most people don't see it that way (US or Japan) and marketing has nothing to do with it.

It just wasn't meant to be. The only thing that would have saved the TG-16 (aside from Americans just spontaneously deciding they'd like to read in a video game) would have been if NEC/TTI suddenly started producing dozens of grade A original software for the US, which I'm not sure they could have done with any sum of money.

[Black Tiger]

The TG had tons of awesome RPGs, they just arrived too late and most of them required the CD-Rom or Duo which were way too expensive for the average kid.

Dungeon Explorer
Double Dungeons
Neutopia
Neutopia 2
Order of the Griffon
Ys 1-2
Ys 3
Exile
Exile 2
Cosmic Fantasy 2
Might and Magic 3
Dragon Slayer
Dungeon Master
Loom
Dungeon Explorer 2

Yes, some of these belong to debatable genres, but I'll argue that roughly one-fifth of the CD games could be classified as RPGs.  Other sames like Beyond Shadowgate, Dynastic Hero, Shape Shifter, Dragon's Curse, JB Harold, etc. are also popular with RPG fans.

That said, the TG doesn't have many of the dumbed-down, turn-based, linear RPGs that tend to become wildly popular.  Like Arkhan pointed out, first-person RPGs are a bit of a puzzler for mainstream gamers.  I'd go one step further and say that the average Final Fantasy fanboy rarely gets into any of the old-school, computer-style RPGs that are closer to the D+D roots of the genre.  They're just as lost in top-down Ultima as they are in first-person Wizardry.  The whole reason Dragon Quest found mass appeal is because it was the first time game designers took all of the esoteric D+D mechanics that early, unlicensed, RPGs had stayed fairly close to and streamlined it (for better or worse).  Gone was the hour of character building.  Magic Missile become "Hurt" spell.  Slow, non-linear exploration was sacrificed for an easy-to-grasp plot and so on.  The Final Fantasy series kept the simplification and refined the concept with a more attractive combat system and epic storyline.  The only TG RPGs along these lines are CF2 and Dragon Slayer, which is why no one thinks our fairly RPG-heavy system has enough RPGs.

Even with your stretching of the definition of the genre, which I prefer to call 'games for RPG fans', the Turbo isn't RPG-heavy, as it amounts to 10% or less of the library and is still much lower than Genesis/Sega-CD and SNES in the number of titles.

Just like with the Sega platform though, people who say that the Turbo has nothing or very little to offer RPG fans are incorrect, but it does have few "traditional" JRPGs, which thanks to the SNES is what most people think of when you say RPG. The way that some Genesis fans stretch the definition, it includes basically everything but sports games.

The PC Engine does have as much as or more RPG and RPG-fan-friendly games as the SFC.

But as Zeta said, RPGs weren't popular during the 16-bit generation. FFIII was noteworthy at the time, because even non-RPG fans noticed it. That helped set up Chrono Trigger to attain its instant "legendary" status by people who'd played very few RPGs and were blinded by the trendy aesthetics.

If we're talking about what was good for the Turbo commercially and to strengthen its brand, it would've been best off with more impressive games from Japan and fewer unimpressive ones. Imagine if people's impression of the Turbo was that it had killer graphics and games instead of being a fake 16-bit console with such random quality? I think that it would have done better and be remembered more fondly by non-Turbo fans.

[Arkhan]

I dunno I think if there were more US RPG options, it would have helped give it more oomph.  RPGs were raved about in lots of old magazines.  EGM and GamePro did tons of OOMGOMGOOMGOMGOGM when chrono trigger came out, and Lufia wasn't exactly a fart in the wind!

[grahf]

I have to disagree about RPGs, Zeta. While they certainly weren't as influential as games like Sonic and DKC, a lot of people did play them. Me, my brother, and most of my friends did,  I think I actually only had one game playing fried who didn't. For me and my brother, RPGs were 60% of what we bought (which amounted to a few new games a year).

[Arkhan]

all i played growing up was RPGs for the most part.  Anti social ftw

[nectarsis]

While true many of us (and like minded friends) bitd played rpg's...by in large they were largely ignored by the majority of gamers for a long time.  It's  true (as Zeta stated) FF VII really did break rpg's into a MUCH larger mainstream presence.

[nat]

In this crowd, I'm obviously an exception, as I didn't touch RPGs until adulthood. That stuff was boring to me as a kid and even into young adulthood. I stuck to action games, and more importantly, shooters. This fact alone made the Turbo the console of choice during the 16-bit era. The Genesis was an attractive option, but a Turbo is what I ended up with.

[Arkhan]

In this crowd, I'm obviously an exception, as I didn't touch RPGs until adulthood. That stuff was boring to me as a kid and even into young adulthood. I stuck to action games, and more importantly, shooters. This fact alone made the Turbo the console of choice during the 16-bit era. The Genesis was an attractive option, but a Turbo is what I ended up with.

whats funny is as far as action games went, I usually turned to my turbob growing up.   RPGs on the rest of the stuff.

but not much on the SNES really touches the Turbob in the action department..

[SignOfZeta]

I actually bought my Duo primarily for the RPGs I hoped would come out for it (but didn't). That, and GoT/LoT.

I too played a lot of RPGs on NES, Amiga, Mac, whatever, but I assure you only the small nerd minority did that in the US. When I worked at a video rental chain the mid 90s there would basically be two to three people who always rented the RPGs, then there the other 25,000 customers who wanted Mortal Kombat, licensed stuff, and sports shit.