Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE

[Mathius]

the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?

TIGER UPPERHADOKTIGERUHADOKSHORYUTIGERUPPERCHADOKEN

You forgot to say that through that kazoo of yours.

[soop]

Beat 'em ups is a good point.  I wonder how a Final Fight HuCard would have gone down.  The PCE has proven it can handle massive sprites..  What's the closest game to Final Fight?  The Kung Fu?

[fragmare]

I think both the TG16 and Genesis sound hardware do their respective jobs just fine.  Cases can be made for excellent works on both systems.  Take Ghouls N' Ghosts, for example... clearly it sounds better on the Genesis than on the SuperGrafx.  Now look at Street Fighter II... you've got to be deaf not to hear the PC-Engine version sounds better.  Then there were the dual-platform games where it's a bit more subjective.  Devil's Crush, for example, sounds better to me on the TG16, despite it being programmed, on the Genesis, by the mighty Technosoft.  Kyokyuko Tiger/Twin Cobra sounds better, to me, on the Genesis.  Cadash, while both versions sound different, seem altogether about the same quality.  The list could go on and on...  Of course, each system has their sound masterpieces.  You'll never find anything like Streets Of Rage or Thunderforce on the TG16/PCE, and you'll never find anything like Soldier Blade or Aldynes on the Genesis.  The TG16 didn't have FM channels for that low, thumping, twangy bass and the Genesis did not have custom waveforms or enough PSG channels to get the same kind of sound out of its PSG channels as the TG16.  The only thing I wish they'd done with the PCE/TG16 is give the PSG channels their own controller chip to take a little heat off the CPU.  I mean, it's not like full-blown PSG sound eats up a *lot* of CPU time (5-10% maybe), but every little bit counts.

As for NES games sounding better, there are two things in play here.  The first is nostalgia and the second is musical composition.  While an argument can be made that many NES games (Ninja Gaiden, Contra, SMB, Megaman) had some ultra-addictive stick-in-your-head tunes that you keep humming all day, I think the majority of what's going on is that it's nostalgia at work.  You were younger, things made a bigger impression on you back then, and NES music was essentially a soundtrack to your youth. 

[Arkhan]

Take Ghouls N' Ghosts, for example... clearly it sounds better on the Genesis than on the SuperGrafx. 

THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS. 

[fragmare]

Beat 'em ups is a good point.  I wonder how a Final Fight HuCard would have gone down.  The PCE has proven it can handle massive sprites..  What's the closest game to Final Fight?  The Kung Fu?

PCE would/could have handled Final Fight great, especially on HuCard.  Might have to make the HuCard 6-8Mbit if you wanted all three characters, but as far as actual gameplay, it'd be just fine.  You could even use the PCE's 336x224 mode for a resolution a bit closer to the arcade's, or you could go the SNES route and use 256x224.  Take a look at Final Fight for the SNES... they pulled off two characters with a 4Mbit cart and it played just fine (and that was even an early release when they were still trying to figure out how to get the most of the SNES's turd of a CPU).  The PCE desperately needed a *great* sidescrolling beater and never got it.  Double Dragon II is good, but not exactly the most impressive beat-em-up.  Riot Zone is visually nice, but the gameplay itself leaves much to be desired (no 2p co-op?  wtf?).  Personally, I think the PCE should have gotten a conversion of the original TMNT arcade game by Konami.  It would have made a lot of sense, since the PCE had 5-player tap and there was no other decent conversion of that game around (yea, the NES version is a good game, but I wouldn't even really call it a good conversion).

Take Ghouls N' Ghosts, for example... clearly it sounds better on the Genesis than on the SuperGrafx. 

THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS. 

HAHA well it really does sound better!  PCE fanboyism notwithstanding, of course *cough*

[Arkhan]

I prefer PCE music over most, because I like the way it sounds better than FM, lol.

and:


you sure it sounds better? lol

[fragmare]

Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

I prefer PCE music over most, because I like the way it sounds better than FM, lol.

and:

you sure it sounds better? lol

Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.  While the SGX soundtrack is more arcade faithful and the Genesis soundtrack is arranged, I enjoy the depth of the FM and, I'm sorry, some of the high notes on the SGX are just unpleasant to hear... just sayin'

[spenoza]

the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?

Yeah, I said I didn't prefer the Genesis on sound effects and digital sampling. The MD could replicate high-quality digital audio, but not really when it was doing anything else (except for a few examples, like Dynamite Heady). But the ability to combine FM and PSG really made for some dynamic soundtracks.

[Arkhan]

Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

I prefer PCE music over most, because I like the way it sounds better than FM, lol.

and:

you sure it sounds better? lol

Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.  While the SGX soundtrack is more arcade faithful and the Genesis soundtrack is arranged, I enjoy the depth of the FM and, I'm sorry, some of the high notes on the SGX are just unpleasant to hear... just sayin'

my reason for not liking the gennie one is the sounds are inconsistent.  Some tunes sound absolutely awesome, and others its like WHY IS IREM IN MY GAME

[Necromancer]

my reason for not liking the gennie one is the sounds are inconsistent.  Some tunes sound absolutely awesome, and others its like WHY IS IREM IN MY GAME

Unlike the PCE where every game sounds just as good as Dungeon Explorer or Legendary Axe. 

[Arkhan]

exactly.

Even bad PCE music sounds good.

I can't really think of a game that has terri..

oh wait, Turrican.

Goddamn.

[fragmare]

exactly.

Even bad PCE music sounds good.

I can't really think of a game that has terri..

oh wait, Turrican.

Goddamn.

haha the PCE had its fair share of awful music, like any other system.  Darkwing Duck comes to mind too

[sunteam_paul]

4. Shenmue 3 on Super CD.

HELL YES.

[Arkhan]

exactly.

Even bad PCE music sounds good.

I can't really think of a game that has terri..

oh wait, Turrican.

Goddamn.

haha the PCE had its fair share of awful music, like any other system.  Darkwing Duck comes to mind too

Yeah. well that's what happens when round eye touches stuff

[Bonknuts]

I think 10 was enough for the MD. The MD had some excellent soundtracks. The sound effects usually sucked balls, but thanks to the FM and PSG there were some fantastic tunes. I agree that more can be done with fewer channels, though. Look as some of the best NES soundtracks. I feel like the PCE's audio solution was simply too inflexible, too difficult to push. 6 channels would have been just fine if there were just a little more it could do with them.

 But that's just a number. Most MD/Gen tunes don't even touch the PSG chip for music. And the ones that do definitely don't have it for the lead (with very-very few rare exceptions like SOR title screen music). Of the 4 PSG channels, it's realistically only three. 'Cause the noise channel is completely useless on its own; it only has two pitches for noise. If you want a real operation for the noise channel, it takes the period register of a tone channel (in which you loose a channel) to make real range of noise pitches. And the fact that PSG channels themselves are rather limiting (no duty cycle changing and the 10bit period register limits the octave range (both low notes and high notes). Considering what the FM chip was capable of (whether you're a fan of it or not), the SMS PSG chip is not much of a companion. You can already make perfect square wave and triangle waveform notes with the YM2612 using the feedback register (a common exploit in FM chips).

 Same with the NES. Sure, 5 channels. But those channels aren't the same as the PCE. I mean, ignoring the fact that only two of the channels are lead (4 duty cycles for four different 'timbres') - the triangle channel has no volume control and neither does the 'sample' DPCM channel. So the PCE might have just one more channel, but it's a rather large step up from the NES audio in terms of capability. Whether developers took advantage of that or not, is another thing entirely.

 But I do agree that 8 channels would have seemed the logical route for PCE audio. Not that you really need more channels per se to make a song or such, but the PCE's audio lacks any sort of intra-note hardware timbre control (though note-to-note timbre control is easy to do) and requires doing phase difference type effects with two channels to bend that timbre/sound (which number of PCE game music do). So an extra 2 channels would have worked nicely for that - even if it meant no extra waveform memory for them; just duplicate/reuse an existing waveform buffer. But as it is, the CDROM attachment was showcased even before the PCE was released. So think of that as your real audio upgrade (nothing could beat red book at the time). Appreciation for chiptunes seems all the rage these past 10 years or so, but back in the day people didn't give a shit. CD audio was 'badass' and everything else was inferior.