Author Topic: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE  (Read 5013 times)

Arkhan

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2012, 04:00:46 AM »
How did I miss this gold mine.

If the waveforms are short, 8bit depth does nothing for it.
 

 You obviously haven't listened to the MSX using an SCC very much.  You can hear much, much, much richer sound.  What it lacks is ambience because there is no panning.  The sound is not atmospheric, but it sure is bright.  PCE is a little thinner/weaker, but has so much ambience going on that it more than makes up for it.  The sampling works better on the PCE too. 
 
 You won't hear Soldier Blade style drums on the MSX with an SCC.  You also will never achieve the eerie atmosphere that Dungeon Explorer gets from the music.
 
 
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And then take that into the analog output world (because sample output isn't stair cased like when you look at it digitally), it means even
 less.
 

 Context is goooooood. =3
 
 
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The sample lengths for these DDS samples are way too short for the different of 8bit to 5bit to mean much of anything. If you don't believe me, try it yourself in an XM tracker. Make a 32sample 8bit wave and make an identical one in 5bit steps (padded to 8bit though).
 

 I don't believe you, because this is incorrect.  It takes some intimate understanding and experience with the SCC and it's varied uses to realize what 3 bits can do for you.
 
 Or, it requires ears:
 
   MSX with the SCC
   PCE
 
 Notice how the PCE one is more ambient, the drums are punchy samples, but the sounds themselves are a bit weaksauce when compared to the MSX one that is VERY RICH AND BRIGHT.
 
 3 bits.  Listen to that.
 
 
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As it is, you can't even use all 5bit value range resolution for a complete sine wave in just 32 samples.
 

 Can you clarify? Or at least make this sentence correct so I can try to figure out what you mean.
 
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If anything makes the MSX with SCC more rich, it would be the inclusion of the original on board MSX sound chip in conjunction with SCC chip.

Along with FM, it makes one of the richest chip-based sound experiences anyone will ever hear on an 8 bit machine.


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The over all design is good, IMO. But since it lacks any timbre control per intra-note (you can do it per note level itself though), it really holds it back.
 

 So use FM and slam stuff into it to change the timbre.  I don't see how this is really grounds for being held back though.  Plus you can change waveforms so fast it doesnt even matter. Just use shorter notes, blend together and swap waves as you go.  It's a bit of effort, but hey, welcome to sound chips as opposed to real instruments.  Take them for what they are instead of holding them to other standards.  You don't hear people complaining that they wish their kazoo was a trumpet, do you?  "Man my kazoo is really held back because it doesn't have 3 valves and a mouth piece!"
 
 
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Early 70's synths that weren't FM used lots of channels to create instruments sound models, but to also control the timbre of a instrument sound.

What? Do you mean additive synthesis? Why is this even worth mentioning? 

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For the PCE's audio design, it's clearly lacking in the number of channels. By the time the PCE was out, audio chips in game systems were getting more serious (and arcades too).
 

 6 channels is lacking in 1987?  lolgtfo.  That's more than the NES, and the same as the Genesis which wasn't even out yet.  More than the Konami SCC even.  How is 6 channels lacking?  You're high.
 
 
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Famicom really stepped up the bar. PCE audio, if nothing changed in design, should have been eight to ten channels, really.
 

 Does that mean the Genesis should have been 12-14 channels, really?  MSX-MUSIC had 9 channels of FM in 1987. 
 
 6 channels is more than the NES, and the SCC.  I think the PCE is just fine.  Look what people do with just 3 channels on other machines. 
 
 \o/ Thanks for reviving this post, new guy. 
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Digi.k

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2012, 10:20:13 AM »
I know this is kind of late, but anyway, here is my list of missed oppurtunities ](*,)

1. More Capcom and Konami games
2. Namco CDs. ALL of Namco's games were on Hucard. Some ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo). Splatterhouse had none of the gory backround details from the arcade, and could have been much better on CD format.



If only Konami had stepped in earlier.. I would love some of those MSX-2 games to have appeared on the pc-engine... Space Mambo for pce ?? HELL YEAH!

and a port of the orginal MSX parodius... ;_;
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 10:22:28 AM by Digi.k »

nectarsis

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2012, 10:39:21 AM »
Some ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo).


Genpei Toumaden...fantastic :-k [-( LOL
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Digi.k

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2012, 10:43:08 AM »
Some ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo).


Genpei Toumaden...fantastic :-k [-( LOL

it's almost arcade perfect !!!  I don't have mame and the roms anymore to prove it but it is  ;_;

RegalSin

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2012, 11:18:11 AM »
Everything else was fine on the PCE.

1. They made the DUO ( including Super Grafx ) systems, instead of focusing on the original design. The original design could have been intergrated with the NEC series. It was perfect.

2.The PCFX was reasonable and could have and should have been the PC98.

3. Hudson Soft could have used the card type and challenge USB, and Firewire. Ever seen cable boxes with the slot card, parking meeters, and wash rooms dispencers? Swing and a miss hudson.

nectarsis

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2012, 11:27:43 AM »
Some ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo).


Genpei Toumaden...fantastic :-k [-( LOL

it's almost arcade perfect !!!  I don't have mame and the roms anymore to prove it but it is  ;_;

A POS that's arcade perfect is STILL a POS :P lol
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spenoza

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2012, 06:52:13 PM »
Quote
The over all design is good, IMO. But since it lacks any timbre control per intra-note (you can do it per note level itself though), it really holds it back.
 
So use FM and slam stuff into it to change the timbre.  I don't see how this is really grounds for being held back though.  Plus you can change waveforms so fast it doesnt even matter. Just use shorter notes, blend together and swap waves as you go.  It's a bit of effort, but hey, welcome to sound chips as opposed to real instruments.  Take them for what they are instead of holding them to other standards.  You don't hear people complaining that they wish their kazoo was a trumpet, do you?  "Man my kazoo is really held back because it doesn't have 3 valves and a mouth piece!"

Good point. If you're determined to use a kazoo, use it as a kazoo. However, I doubt anyone would call a kazoo a superior instrument. The PCE sound chip does have a lot of flaws that require working around, and limit those who lack the time or talent to really push the chip. Truth told, there are many times I've thought to myself "Why didn't the PCE do anything like that?" when listening to NES soundtracks.

Quote
For the PCE's audio design, it's clearly lacking in the number of channels. By the time the PCE was out, audio chips in game systems were getting more serious (and arcades too).
 
6 channels is lacking in 1987?  lolgtfo.  That's more than the NES, and the same as the Genesis which wasn't even out yet.  More than the Konami SCC even.  How is 6 channels lacking?  You're high.

The Genesis has 10 sound channels in total. It has the same 4 the Master System had and 6 new channels. The PCE was a little low on sound channels. It probably should have had 8. I'm not surprised it only had 6 considering Hudson was designing it to compete with the NES, but if Hudson had been more forward-looking, 8 channels and perhaps a discrete audio controller, instead of bundling the circuitry in with the CPU, would have been a more logical design. The design of the PCE seems like NES mimicry in so many ways. Instead, they should have been looking at developments in arcade board design. That was part of Sega's success with the Genny. Then again, Sega had arcade hardware and software experience, and Hudson really didn't.
 

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Famicom really stepped up the bar. PCE audio, if nothing changed in design, should have been eight to ten channels, really.
 
Does that mean the Genesis should have been 12-14 channels, really?  MSX-MUSIC had 9 channels of FM in 1987. 
 
 6 channels is more than the NES, and the SCC.  I think the PCE is just fine.  Look what people do with just 3 channels on other machines. 

I think 10 was enough for the MD. The MD had some excellent soundtracks. The sound effects usually sucked balls, but thanks to the FM and PSG there were some fantastic tunes. I agree that more can be done with fewer channels, though. Look as some of the best NES soundtracks. I feel like the PCE's audio solution was simply too inflexible, too difficult to push. 6 channels would have been just fine if there were just a little more it could do with them.

I know there have been tons of discussions here about chip soundtracks, and I do love the PCE, but the chip audio is generally frustrating to me. I do often feel let down by the capabilities, and practical applications, of the PCE's audio design. I prefer how the system handles digital sampling compared to the Genesis, and the system can do some great drum samples, but the tonal qualities of the various waveforms just don't do it for me. Again, I'm used to hearing good stuff on the NES and wondering why PCE soundtracks aren't as good, and that's something I shouldn't be thinking.
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Syntesis

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2012, 11:00:50 PM »
1. Contra game.

2. Bubble Bobble port.

3. Some sort of Castlevania on HUCARD.

4. Shenmue 3 on Super CD.

Arkhan

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2012, 12:34:33 AM »
Good point. If you're determined to use a kazoo, use it as a kazoo. However, I doubt anyone would call a kazoo a superior instrument. The PCE sound chip does have a lot of flaws that require working around, and limit those who lack the time or talent to really push the chip. Truth told, there are many times I've thought to myself "Why didn't the PCE do anything like that?" when listening to NES soundtracks.
DEVO could make the kazoo work, I am sure.  :)

I think the PCE didn't do certain things with their soundtrack simply because it's a different kind of sound.  It's the same sort of argument as the kazoo and trumpet.  You could hear SID and wonder "Well dang why doesn't the SMS do that?"

... but then you can listen to the SMS and go "Well dang why doesn't the SID do that!"

Every chip does what it does, and it does it good.  I know when I hear overly arpped crap on the NES from Tim Failin, I don't wish the PCE was doing it.   I do hear amazing drums in Soldier Blade, Blazing Lazers, etc, and go "hah, \o/".   The PCE does plenty that the NES doesn't do without an additional chip. :)


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The Genesis has 10 sound channels in total. It has the same 4 the Master System had and 6 new channels.
Yeah, I was talking strictly FM here, since it's the "new thing" the Genesis had over everything else that already existed.

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The PCE was a little low on sound channels. It probably should have had 8. I'm not surprised it only had 6 considering Hudson was designing it to compete with the NES, but if Hudson had been more forward-looking, 8 channels and perhaps a discrete audio controller, instead of bundling the circuitry in with the CPU, would have been a more logical design.
Eh, 6 is a pretty solid number.  If you look at the soundtracks, would 2 more channels have really added to the sound? Probably not.  Look how much Konami did with 5 channels instead of 6.  granted they also had the PSG... you often only hear it used for drums, and sometimes they end up using all 3 PSG channels to make one drum sound...

The NES didn't need 6.  The original MSX only had 3!  6 seems fine.

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The design of the PCE seems like NES mimicry in so many ways. Instead, they should have been looking at developments in arcade board design. That was part of Sega's success with the Genny. Then again, Sega had arcade hardware and software experience, and Hudson really didn't.
now, if only Sega got the "hey, dithering sucks ass" memo with their color choices for the Genesis... 
 
 
Quote
I think 10 was enough for the MD. The MD had some excellent soundtracks. The sound effects usually sucked balls, but thanks to the FM and PSG there were some fantastic tunes. I agree that more can be done with fewer channels, though. Look as some of the best NES soundtracks. I feel like the PCE's audio solution was simply too inflexible, too difficult to push. 6 channels would have been just fine if there were just a little more it could do with them.
Right, 10 was plenty.  Just like 6 was plenty.  Just because another platform has more channels doesn't mean the PCE or the Genesis would need to do the same.

You can have an obscene amount of channels on the MSX.  3 PSG, 5 SCC, 9 FM from MSX MUSIC and 9 FM from MSXAUDIO... and I guess you could slap a moonsound in there too and have enough channels to kill a human.

But, you'll never see anyone doing this because there's little point.  9 channels of FM (or 6 + FM drums),  or 5 SCC + 3 PSG (used basically as 1 channel drums), is more than enough to accomplish anything you could be thinking about doing with music on the MSX.  When you add TOO many channels, is when music starts to get all jacked up and people start to do stupid things because they can.


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Again, I'm used to hearing good stuff on the NES and wondering why PCE soundtracks aren't as good, and that's something I shouldn't be thinking.

If you don't like the waveform capabilities, it will be difficult to appreciate the thing, I guess.  It's a radically different kind of sound.  I'm glad it exists.

Im also glad there aren't hipster twits making awful dancemusic crap with the PCE like they do with the NES and Gameboy.

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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shubibiman

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2012, 01:11:21 AM »
Mortal Kombat would have sold much more TGX16 is in the US, it was so huge back then.

BUT if the PC Engine/TGX16 had the same games as the other consoles, it wouldn't have had the same appeal, at least to me, as I liked it for its own games.

Of course, I would have loved to have beat 'em ups (or at least good ones) or Contra games.
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Tatsujin

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2012, 01:21:44 AM »
Lol, the PCE's hardware design was so much more superior advanced than the onef rom  the MD/genny.
As I always like to say, if you open a PCE it looks like a reduced to the max super quad flat pack SMD super duper design direct from the future.
Now when you open a genny, it looks like a cheap radio alarm clock from the early 80s.

Now you tell me who had more experience in designing some rad hardaware?
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Arkhan

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #101 on: January 18, 2012, 01:22:36 AM »
Tats has a point there.

It goes as far as their cards, not just the console itself.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Tatsujin

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2012, 01:28:04 AM »
the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?
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Arkhan

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2012, 01:31:39 AM »
the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?

TIGER UPPERHADOKTIGERUHADOKSHORYUTIGERUPPERCHADOKEN

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Tatsujin

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Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
« Reply #104 on: January 18, 2012, 01:42:49 AM »
ROLFMAORORFLOL
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