Author Topic: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE  (Read 1772 times)

SamIAm

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2011, 07:52:47 AM »
It's too bad the PCE never had any late popularity in Brazil, otherwise they might be trying to for it.

SignOfZeta

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2011, 08:23:39 AM »
It's a good thing the PCE never had any late popularity in Brazil, otherwise they might be trying to
for it.


Edited for clarity.

SamIAm

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2011, 09:53:12 AM »
Why?

In the Genesis community, even people who think the games themselves aren't especially fun to play still think the popularity of the system in Brazil and the surprisingly functional FPSs that came out of it are really cool.

fragmare

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2011, 10:30:54 AM »
I took a look at frag's first image in particular as it looks like it can be done with tiles alone. Looks like it would require 40 tile updates per frame, but split across three or perhaps four individual copies, depending on how much memory you're putting aside for unique pattern combinations. Even HuC can pull this off with ease if planned well enough. Shooters rarely require a ton of copies for sprites, so you can use that saved time to do stuff like this. :)

The second one looks like it's a palette cycle... but I can't be 100% sure without looking at the individual frames.


The first image is easy to explain.  The very topmost layer is the "normal" non-animated background tiles.  They scroll at 2 pixels per vblank and they have a palette shift applied to some pixels on the edges to make it appear like they're glowing.  The next layer down consists of two 32x16 tile-chunks that repeat vertically and scroll at 1 px/vblank.  The next one down consists of two 24x16 chunks that repeat vertically and scroll at 1 px every 2 vblanks.  the next one is two 16x16 chunks that scroll at 1 px every 4 vblanks.  the deepest layer is two 8x16 chunks that scroll at 1 px every 8 vblanks.  All layers except the very top (normal scroll) layer are made of animated tiles and have the "wiggle" effect built in.  In addition, each of the animated tiles consists of only 4 colors, so they can be "bitplane packed", and the space used in VRAM by them is effectively halved.  As a result, the entire background tile set uses like ~16KB of VRAM space or something like that... pretty minimal for the visual wow-factor generated.

The second image is just a static 64x64 tile chunk that repeats across the screen, has a sine wave applied to it along with a palette cycle.  What I'd *REALLY* like to do with that background, however, is something like the trippy effect from Gaiares lv3 (the hyperspace scene) on the Sega Genesis.  I'm pretty sure one of the bg layers of the hyperspace scene from Gaiares uses a DOUBLE sine wave or something, but I can't be sure until somebody diddles with the ROM in a debugger.  The animated GIF i made just uses a regular sine wave.

For those who've not seen that level of Gaiares, check this link out:   Still, one of the most amazing levels of any 16-bit era shooter, imo...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 10:55:35 AM by fragmare »

Arkhan

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2011, 01:08:32 PM »
Well now, didn't Gunboat and some air combat game use simple polygons? If you can do simple polygons you should be able to do simple wireframes.

Youll notice both Falcon and Gunboat have an AVOID stamp on pcengine.co.uk

They suck.

Balls.

Lots of them.


OK, so they suck mechanically. How's the polygon action?

its like watching dice roll in slow motion.

its bad. 
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Black Tiger

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2011, 01:35:55 PM »
Well now, didn't Gunboat and some air combat game use simple polygons? If you can do simple polygons you should be able to do simple wireframes.

Youll notice both Falcon and Gunboat have an AVOID stamp on pcengine.co.uk

They suck.

Balls.

Lots of them.


OK, so they suck mechanically. How's the polygon action?

its like watching dice roll in slow motion.

its bad. 

A small number of tiny dice. :wink:
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SignOfZeta

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2011, 06:55:12 PM »
Why?

In the Genesis community, even people who think the games themselves aren't especially fun to play still think the popularity of the system in Brazil and the surprisingly functional FPSs that came out of it are really cool.

FPS suck in general. Crappy FPS on systems that obviously can't handle them suck even more.

A system living on for a ridiculous number of years is really wonderful, especially if only regionally. Brazil's love of Sega systems the rest of the world threw away years before is super cool. It would have been neat to see...I don't know, Street Fighter Alpha or Guardian Heroes or something, but not Duke.

Games cost money, and are meant to be played, to actually have fun with. Now its just a free ROM to add to our infinite collection of ROMs, something to be analyzed and talked about, to make Youtube videos out of, etc. But people actually MADE that thing. They went to work every day for months porting a game that barely ran on the PCs of the time. Then somebody (I assume) actually saved up money all week and plopped it down on that piece of crap, and that's just depressing.

Its like Ultimate Mortal Kombat III for Famicom. Sure its impressive, but if you (and by "you" I mean, "every single person in the world") aren't actually going to play it, ever...who gives a shit?

Bonknuts

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2011, 07:35:15 PM »
Quote
I don't know how taxing wire frame 3D is compared to polygons...
Wireframes are easier, if you don't mind background wires showing through. It gets a bit harder if you want them erased - at that point, it's not much different from a black-filled polygon.

Quote
I'm assuming that they should be able to do some decent wire frame stuff.
Possibly, assuming you don't need a high frame rate.
In one test Arkhan and I did (for the vines in junglehunt), we managed to get 5 lines moving before hitting the frame time limit. The problem is that the pce has a 4-plane BG layer, so drawing 1 dot involves 4 read/update/write cycles. Add in the need for floating point math (faked or not), and you can see it's a problem.
Not saying impossible, but it looks like it would take a hell of a lot of optimization to get anything above about 15 fps for more than a dozen or so lines....

 If it's wireframe and you don't care about different colors, you can setup the VDC for 1bit bitmap. You write/use the 1bit frame buffer in main ram, then you blit it to vram. But vram tiles need to be setup in a specific order. And the vram increment pointer needs to be set to 32. It's true that you need to write a whole WORD to the vram port at a time, but the latch is only on the MSB port. Just write a zero on the LSB port once at the very first write (or whatever value you want to repeat), and only write to the MSB when copying the rest of the 1bit frame buffer data. Instant scanline blitting. You can either update the vram pointer at the end of every bitmap 'scanline' transfer or let it wrap on to do 1 scanline writing per 8 high block area, doing 8 passes total (each pass writes scanline Y of an 8 high pixel group in the pseudo tile arrangement bitmap in vram). And since you're only using the first two bits of the tile (and one plane you don't even write to, so it's a free cycle to update), you can uses the other 2 bitplanes to hold a crude/low color BG image that the poly lines overlay onto. It's very complex to setup, and probably difficult understand (you have to keep your head constantly wrapped around it), but once you do both - you'll see that you have do a ton of stuff you can do (you also have the option of making the wire frame overlay translucent over the other 2bit planes or not). You could take the slower route, 1bit frame buffer and 3bit tile graphics, but it requires you write the 1bit frame buffer data to the LSB and read the MSB and write it back to the MSB. So, quite a bit slower - but more colors and still the ability for translucency (don't forget you can still apply subpalettes to the tiles to make the underneath buffer more than just 8 colors. I've done many of private demos/tests messing around with this kind of stuff).

 You could use sprites in the same fashion and it's a little easier too (setup wise), but that's a waste since you'd probably want some movable sprite ability. Of course stock ram isn't much for holding a working frame buffer. 240x200x1bit is 6000bytes, leaving only 2192bytes left over on a stock hucard (without cheating and using the Populous hucard setup with its extra 32k of ram on chart). That's pretty tight, but doable.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 08:44:23 PM by Bonknuts »

SamIAm

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2011, 09:08:15 PM »
...that's just depressing.

...who gives a shit?

Most retro fans agree that enjoying some older games requires an understanding of the context of their releases. For example, Blazing Lazers wouldn't be half as well regarded if it had come out it in 1994. Here we have an FPS that came out in Brazil in 1998 - assuming most people couldn't afford PCs, this was probably the first FPS that fair number of Brazilians played, at least at home. If it was at least playable, then I dare say some of them probably had fun with it. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

termis

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2011, 12:33:13 AM »
For those who've not seen that level of Gaiares, check this link out:
  Still, one of the most amazing levels of any 16-bit era shooter, imo...


Man, it's been a while, but what a treat that level is.  Just watching (and listening!) to that stage gave me a huge grin.

Actually, even more so than the trippy wavy-effect, I thought that hyperspace effect was awesome (I still remember being very impressed back in the day, and it still looks great today).  I can't recall anything similar in a PCE game (shooter or not).  Perhaps because I've seen the wavy-effects done already at the time with the Thunder Forces and all.  Granted, the Gaiares wavy effects has helluva lot more going on than.

awack

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2011, 08:50:33 AM »
A few pce shooters the wavy...Violent Soldier, Image Fight 2 and Super Darius 2 etc.

Its hard to tell whats going on in the  Gaiares video, but one of the best effects of that type Ive seen is from Terraforming.

Fast forward to 25:40

Arkhan

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2011, 04:46:08 AM »
I like the derpy effect when you beat levels in Final Soldier.

it reminds me of yars revenge.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Necromancer

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2011, 08:54:26 AM »
This came up in another thread but wasn't answered (unless I missed it), so I figured I'd repeat it here:  how does the magnifying glass work on the stage select screen of Darkwing Duck?  I don't know if it's technically impressive, but it sure looks neat.  Do any other games use a similar effect?
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awack

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2011, 12:47:01 PM »


As far as a similar effect is concerned, this is the only thing i can think off the top of my head, in this Case, it looks like a different sprite with a different color palette.

shubibiman

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Re: Best technical and artistic tricks on the PCE
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2011, 06:05:47 PM »
I have ti play this game. I've got it for 1 year now but still haven't had time to play it.
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